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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9337161" data-attributes="member: 7030563"><p>Yeah but it slows them down a lot more and if they go around it they need to brun movement for tat right?</p><p></p><p>I am not saying slowing someone 10 feet per round is awful, but it is not something to brag about or something that is goint to save the day.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That is not how it started. Go back and read my original post. "Overshadowing" was mentioned by me much, much later.</p><p></p><p>It started because I said the reason fighters were only good for bashing things is because they invest in Constitution instead of abilities that are useful in the other pillars. I also said the only classes that could put a 16 in Constitution and still be good at all 3 pillars are Rogue, Bard and Ranger. </p><p></p><p>That is how this started and is why your caster has a 16 Constitution. You wanted to demonstrate a caster good at all 3 pillars with a 16 Con and you failed. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said he could be outmatched by a 1st level fighter. I said a first level fighter would survive longer in the first encounter in LMOP.</p><p></p><p>Pay attention to what I said.</p><p></p><p>He is outmatched by a 3rd level fighter though and is nearly useless in combat (less useless than a 10 charisma fighter is in the social pillar).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not only fo rthat reason. If you are going to paraphrase me use what I said. Easy to hit/kill, casting spells and focusing fire.</p><p></p><p>I gave four criteria including 3 on why that Wizard would be trgeted, you are focusing on one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure but a Goblin can use Nimble escape and not suffer an AOO and an Orc has 15hps</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everyone gets stronger and as I have said many, many times class power changes with level and the most powerful and least powerful classes at one level are not the most or least at another level.</p><p></p><p>Now I know this seems difficult but read what I post!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I play RAW for every class. I would not let a fighter who cast find familiar and was looking through a familiar's eyes make a skill check either.</p><p></p><p>Rules are rules, follow them or don't follow them at your table as you see fit, but don't use something that is clearly against the rules as an example of why a Wizard is so powerful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've said that many times. But to be clear this is over levels 1-20, not a statement that applies at any level. As an example it is quite easy to build a Ranger or Rogue that is level 3 and good at all 3 pillars.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't agree at all with the specific examples you posted. I do agree over all levels 1-20 Wizard is the most powerful class in the game. I don't think that means they will automatically "overshadow" other players as dice have far more to do with that then class does.</p><p></p><p>I don't see Wizards "overshadowing" other players either both because of dice and because not ever player maximizes every build.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 9337161, member: 7030563"] Yeah but it slows them down a lot more and if they go around it they need to brun movement for tat right? I am not saying slowing someone 10 feet per round is awful, but it is not something to brag about or something that is goint to save the day. That is not how it started. Go back and read my original post. "Overshadowing" was mentioned by me much, much later. It started because I said the reason fighters were only good for bashing things is because they invest in Constitution instead of abilities that are useful in the other pillars. I also said the only classes that could put a 16 in Constitution and still be good at all 3 pillars are Rogue, Bard and Ranger. That is how this started and is why your caster has a 16 Constitution. You wanted to demonstrate a caster good at all 3 pillars with a 16 Con and you failed. I never said he could be outmatched by a 1st level fighter. I said a first level fighter would survive longer in the first encounter in LMOP. Pay attention to what I said. He is outmatched by a 3rd level fighter though and is nearly useless in combat (less useless than a 10 charisma fighter is in the social pillar). Not only fo rthat reason. If you are going to paraphrase me use what I said. Easy to hit/kill, casting spells and focusing fire. I gave four criteria including 3 on why that Wizard would be trgeted, you are focusing on one. Sure but a Goblin can use Nimble escape and not suffer an AOO and an Orc has 15hps Everyone gets stronger and as I have said many, many times class power changes with level and the most powerful and least powerful classes at one level are not the most or least at another level. Now I know this seems difficult but read what I post! I play RAW for every class. I would not let a fighter who cast find familiar and was looking through a familiar's eyes make a skill check either. Rules are rules, follow them or don't follow them at your table as you see fit, but don't use something that is clearly against the rules as an example of why a Wizard is so powerful. I've said that many times. But to be clear this is over levels 1-20, not a statement that applies at any level. As an example it is quite easy to build a Ranger or Rogue that is level 3 and good at all 3 pillars. I don't agree at all with the specific examples you posted. I do agree over all levels 1-20 Wizard is the most powerful class in the game. I don't think that means they will automatically "overshadow" other players as dice have far more to do with that then class does. I don't see Wizards "overshadowing" other players either both because of dice and because not ever player maximizes every build. [/QUOTE]
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