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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9332210" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So, because you played a fighter with 10 Con to level 20, everyone who is worried about dying on the front line is a fool? Come on, you are positioning yourself as though if a fighter wants to be equally useful all they need is a decent score and a skill proficiency, but that is so bare bones, that most Full Casters ALSO have those things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... spells, spells, spells, magical race, spells, spells, spells.... Huh... so the only way to accomplish these things are through... spells. Or playing a race that allows you to shapeshift. </p><p></p><p>Hmmm.... I wonder if that is the problem we keep talking about...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Suggestion spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Through.... gaining access to spells.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Really? Because if a Bard wanted to, say, read someone's mind to better be able to persuade a character towards a course of action... they innately have that option available to them. Additionally, unless the DM actively works to prevent this, the Bard can do so without giving up anything that they traditionally want. Their power in combat is unaffected by getting this option, unlike the Fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Because when I investigate, I'm lucky if the DM tells me what is in the room, if I didn't specify that I looked under the bed. Let alone a full, accurate description of what occurred over a day ago. </p><p></p><p>I mean, seriously, this sort of "vision of the past" style thing is often treated as... the realm of magic. In fact, something similar is a magical ability. </p><p></p><p>So, the better question is... why would I expect I can, without an ability that says I can? Sure, I can "investigate" but that doesn't give me any narrative options, that doesn't lead to "since I have investigation, I can [blank]" like a spellcaster gets with "Since I cast Detect Thoughts, I can read his mind" </p><p></p><p>And, if you think this is something that a character can just do with any old DC 15 Investigation check... why would you be against me formalizing it as an ability?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Considering how many people survive being shot with arrows without their faces being destroyed, I disagree. Fire as hot as what a wizard is throwing is horrific.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well.... THAT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM! IF there is no reason to play a non-magical character, you have a badly designed game on your hands.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So... the benefit is being worse in all ways? Whoo. So exciting.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And what do non-martial characters have to induce effects anywhere close to this? Also, many of the offenders are either instant combat enders if the enemy fails the save (and there are a plethora of ways to increase the chances of that happening) or have no save at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm so glad my entire character concept allows the wizard to choose to not overshadow me. Truly, I am grateful for their benevolence of allowing a peon like my character to be somewhat useful so that they can be even more useful. </p><p></p><p>Have you ever noticed it never goes the other way? There is never a time the fighter or rogue goes "oh, we have a wizard/cleric/bard/druid so I don't need to choose X ability". It is always that the existence of the martial allows the wizard to swap a SINGLE SPELL.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And so can everyone else. And this is only if the DM decides to allow it, sometimes DMs call such things impossible and kill your character for falling that height. Unless of course you have magic to allow flight, teleportation, feather fall, ect. </p><p></p><p>Additionally, "I jumped from a tall building and took a bunch of damage" isn't exactly something that generally solves a problem or overcomes a challenge in the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, nothing in the base class, unlike all of the wizards/clerics/bards/druids in the game, who we only ever discuss the base class abilities. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, you are kind of proving the point I'm trying to make. At every turn you have basically said "If the fighter chooses to gain access to spells, they can do the things the other classes can do, only worse than those classes." Meanwhile, the fighter's greatest feats include falling on their faces, hitting things with weapons... and that's it. Something everyone else can do. Heck, I've built druids and Clerics to be very deadly in melee. It isn't hard. </p><p></p><p>So.... what is the problem with adding new abilities to the martial characters, off-loading the design into the skill system, and gaining access to it via an ability, in the same way the Weapon Mastery system was designed? Why is this unacceptable?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9332210, member: 6801228"] So, because you played a fighter with 10 Con to level 20, everyone who is worried about dying on the front line is a fool? Come on, you are positioning yourself as though if a fighter wants to be equally useful all they need is a decent score and a skill proficiency, but that is so bare bones, that most Full Casters ALSO have those things. So... spells, spells, spells, magical race, spells, spells, spells.... Huh... so the only way to accomplish these things are through... spells. Or playing a race that allows you to shapeshift. Hmmm.... I wonder if that is the problem we keep talking about... Suggestion spell. Through.... gaining access to spells. Really? Because if a Bard wanted to, say, read someone's mind to better be able to persuade a character towards a course of action... they innately have that option available to them. Additionally, unless the DM actively works to prevent this, the Bard can do so without giving up anything that they traditionally want. Their power in combat is unaffected by getting this option, unlike the Fighter. Because when I investigate, I'm lucky if the DM tells me what is in the room, if I didn't specify that I looked under the bed. Let alone a full, accurate description of what occurred over a day ago. I mean, seriously, this sort of "vision of the past" style thing is often treated as... the realm of magic. In fact, something similar is a magical ability. So, the better question is... why would I expect I can, without an ability that says I can? Sure, I can "investigate" but that doesn't give me any narrative options, that doesn't lead to "since I have investigation, I can [blank]" like a spellcaster gets with "Since I cast Detect Thoughts, I can read his mind" And, if you think this is something that a character can just do with any old DC 15 Investigation check... why would you be against me formalizing it as an ability? Considering how many people survive being shot with arrows without their faces being destroyed, I disagree. Fire as hot as what a wizard is throwing is horrific. Well.... THAT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM! IF there is no reason to play a non-magical character, you have a badly designed game on your hands. So... the benefit is being worse in all ways? Whoo. So exciting. And what do non-martial characters have to induce effects anywhere close to this? Also, many of the offenders are either instant combat enders if the enemy fails the save (and there are a plethora of ways to increase the chances of that happening) or have no save at all. I'm so glad my entire character concept allows the wizard to choose to not overshadow me. Truly, I am grateful for their benevolence of allowing a peon like my character to be somewhat useful so that they can be even more useful. Have you ever noticed it never goes the other way? There is never a time the fighter or rogue goes "oh, we have a wizard/cleric/bard/druid so I don't need to choose X ability". It is always that the existence of the martial allows the wizard to swap a SINGLE SPELL. And so can everyone else. And this is only if the DM decides to allow it, sometimes DMs call such things impossible and kill your character for falling that height. Unless of course you have magic to allow flight, teleportation, feather fall, ect. Additionally, "I jumped from a tall building and took a bunch of damage" isn't exactly something that generally solves a problem or overcomes a challenge in the game. So, nothing in the base class, unlike all of the wizards/clerics/bards/druids in the game, who we only ever discuss the base class abilities. I mean, you are kind of proving the point I'm trying to make. At every turn you have basically said "If the fighter chooses to gain access to spells, they can do the things the other classes can do, only worse than those classes." Meanwhile, the fighter's greatest feats include falling on their faces, hitting things with weapons... and that's it. Something everyone else can do. Heck, I've built druids and Clerics to be very deadly in melee. It isn't hard. So.... what is the problem with adding new abilities to the martial characters, off-loading the design into the skill system, and gaining access to it via an ability, in the same way the Weapon Mastery system was designed? Why is this unacceptable? [/QUOTE]
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