The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly - about every edition of D&D

Mercurius

Legend
I am conducting a bit of research for an idea I have--playing with the idea of putting together an "alternate Dungeons & Dragons" rules set that combines the best of every edition. What I'm looking for, as the title suggests, is the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly about each edition.

The Good - What makes X-edition shine uniquely. What you really like about it and how it differentiates itself from other editions.

The Bad - your pet peeves, dislikes, annoyances about X-edition etc. Not game-breakers, just irritations.

The Ugly - something that is universally reviled or at least generally considered to be bad about X-edition.

Please comment on:

OD&D
BECMI
AD&D 1ed
AD&D 2ed
D&D 3.xed
D&D 4ed

Optionally - Pathfinder, OSRIC, etc.

There are no limits to how much you want to write.

Thanks!

p.s. Oh yeah, this is not an Edition War! Even if you like an edition let me know what you don't like about it. One way around this turning into an Edition War is a request: Whatever editions you comment on, please say something that is Good, Bad, and Ugly about each; and please comment on at least two editions.

p.p.s. I'll do mine later tonight--I've got a kitchen to clean and two little ones to tuck in.
 

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All opinions expressed below are simply... opinions.

OD&D

  • Good: The foundation on which everything in the future was based. Set the ground rules for "What is D&D?". Has a certain Old School charm in the way in which it is presented. System simplicity.
  • Bad: Unbalanced, incomplete (without heavy DM caveat), doesn't have the weight of history and "fluff" that built up over future editions.
  • Ugly: Still quite rooted in the tabletop wargaming origins of the system, leading to some odd/quirky rules. However, as we all know, it is the One True Edition, and All Other Editions are... well, you know the rest.
BECMI

  • Good: The most complete edition of D&D ever released. A complex system of weapon mastery, non-weapon skills, detailed rules for building castles, running dominions, mass combat and siege rules... Seriously, why could no other edition provide such elegant rules for truly epic gaming (dominions, armies)? Rules Cyclopedia is generally regarded as the single best book ever released for D&D. Lightweight introductory system for new players (arguably, the best intro system for new players of any version). Iconic modules (B2, B3, B4, X1). Classic artwork (Erol Otus, Larry Elmore, etc).
  • Bad: Lacks "rules mastery" elements of more complex systems. Campaign world (...much as I love Mystara) could be accused of being a patchwork quilt of crazy.
  • Ugly: ...hmmm, tricky. The first release of the Immortals rules was unbalanced and nigh-unusable. Second release [Wrath of the Immortals] was slightly better, but it was still difficult to play or DM a god. But really, I'm stretching here. BECMI was teh Awesome.
AD&D 1e

  • Good: Some of the best and most imaginative books written. The DMG, Fiend Folio and Monster Manual remain a genuine pleasure to read. Classic modules (GDQ, A1-4, I1, etc). The core fluff of the setting was established (drow, vecna, tharizdun, lolth, outer planes, etc, etc). Greyhawk campaign setting in all it's raw glory, before revision-ism created the true Greyhawk Wars (grognard vs grognard). The Golden Age of Dragon and Dungeon magazines.
  • Bad: Not as "balanced" [whatever that means] as BECMI. Game became unwieldy past 11th level. Some bad rules that should have been ditched or redesigned (speed factors, psionics, etc).
  • Ugly: Total mismatch in PC experience at different levels. Fighters rule the lower levels, wizards rule the higher levels. PCs are arguably too fragile (many spells/poisons/etc which are "save or die", and some which are "no save; you die"
AD&D 2e

  • Good: Outstanding campaign worlds. The high-point in fluff design. Planescape, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Birthright, Al-Qadim, Ravenloft and more. Top quality box sets with many fascinating "fiddly bits".
  • Bad: Nearly everything else. Not enough changed from 1e, so it inherited all of the weaknesses of the previous version, while adding some unique weaknesses all of its own. Political meddling at TSR. The neutering of demons, devils and daemons (...sorry: tanar'ri, baatezu, yugoloths). Dragon and Dungeon magazines were 75% pointless filler.
  • Ugly: Splatbook explosion. More supplements than you could shake a 10' pole at, and some of these supplements "broke the rules". Diffusion of the brand, to the point that players started losing the "common play experience". Nobody could point to a single module (like B2 or X1) and say: "Yeah, I played that too... it was great!".
D&D 3.x

  • Good: The first edition since OD&D to have the courage to slaughter some sacred cows. The first attempt at designing a truly balanced system. A consistent simulationist attempt to build a set of rules that could be applied to every aspect of the game (e.g. monsters behave under the same expectation as characters). A return to demons and devils. Refocusing the corporate line into a single core world. Paizo, and everything Paizo added to the fluff (Age of Worms, Savage Tide, etc). The Silver Age of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. One of the best takes on multiclassing yet, allowing incredible customization of PCs. Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide is one of the best hardbacks yet released. The OGL, in all it's glory, including a wealth of quality material from 3rd party publishers.
  • Bad: Too much detail. Although (arguably) one of the best editions to be a player, it's also one of the worst editions to be a DM. Biggest stat blocks, needless minutae. Despite the changes, the "best window" for adventuring remains 4th-9th level. Epic is broken, and characters are still too fragile at low levels. Few truly memorable 3e modules (compared to 1e / BECMI).
  • Ugly: Splatbook madness continues, and the potential for broken-ness reaches the high water mark. 1e and 2e at least benefited from a lack of instant info-sharing, but the combination of 3e and Internet results in some horrific builds. The OGL, in all it's "glory", including a "wealth" of poorly-written, unbalanced, poorly-edited crap from 3rd party publishers.
D&D 4e

  • Good: The most balanced edition of D&D yet released. Amazing DM support, in terms of design elements and tools. A much-needed move back towards system simplicity. A recognition that times have changed, and that the game must evolve or die. Best tactical combat rules so far. The first legitimate codified framework for non-combat challenges in D&D (i.e. other than simply DM fiat, pure roleplaying, or the "Diplomacy Table" in 3e). Finally, an edition where PCs don't die in a stiff breeze at 1st level... and can be rolled up in under 30 minutes at 28th level. Removed most of the "save or die" fun-killers.
  • Bad: Lackluster and generic fluff. Some head-scratching changes to established D&D conventions. A massive down-powering for spellcasters; possibly too much so. Poor marketing, especially to old-school gamers. Strange monster balance; monsters should arguably hit less often, do more damage, and have less HP (this would quicken combat speed, without the outright lethality of previous versions).
  • Ugly: Terrible handling of 3rd party providers, forcing some of the best designers in the business to create material for other systems/editions.
 

Wow, Lancelot, that is terrific--a fun read! (And thanks for the clear formatting).

I can't say that I disagree with a single word, or at the very least I can see the validity of each and every viewpoint that you express.

Now imagine if Wizards of the Coast was to take something like this and say "Hmmm...how can we design a 5th edition that combines the best elements of each while jettisoning the worst?" OK, not gonna happen--yet--but it would be an interesting approach.

This relates to your point about 4ed's poor marketing. It is my sense that WotC made a gambit that at least somewhat backfired in that they either forgot or deliberately bypassed their base (the grognards and pseudo-grognards) in a (failed?) attempt to market to a younger, Warcraftian crowd, seemingly forgetting the fact that it is this minority of gamers that purchase a majority of books, and assuming that they would just come along for the ride (which not everyone did, certainly less than came along for the ride called 3ed).

My prediction is that 5th edition will be a kind of consolidation based upon the dawning realization that tabletop RPGs are a shrinking market and that the graying base of serious to hardcore gamers--even though it may be the minority of total players--is still responsible for the lion's share of product purchasing. So we really might see something similar to the approach that I'm advocating, albeit with all the bells and whistles that technology will be able to provide in five or six years. That would be the "right way to go", imo, the wrong way being going further into MMO-RPG hybrid territory. I say "wrong" because the MMO players won't downgrade to a less virtual experience, and the RPG players are too old fashioned and in love with that endangered capacity called "Imagination." So my hope is that WotC gets this and 5ed is a step back in the direction of imagination-as-primary and virtuality-as-secondary.

p.s. So if 1ed was the Golden Age of Dragon and Dungeon, and 3ed the Silver Age, with 2ed perhaps being the Lead Age, would that make 4ed the Silicon Age? ;)
 

It's an interesting discussion topic, for sure.

Personally, if I was responsible for releasing 5e...


  • I'd start with a basic boxed set. No PH/DMG/MM. Maybe only the first 5 levels of a limited set of character classes. That's a much more compelling "entry level purchase" for new gamers than buying $100 of manuals in a slipcase.
  • Grognards will buy the "basic set" anyway to get a preview of what the new 5e rules look like, before the more advanced manuals come out in the future. It also means they only have to invest (say) $25-30 in deciding whether they want to move to 5e, rather than forcing them to pay $100 to test whether they enjoy 3e or 4e.
  • Bundle the rulebook with an adventure; something classic and old school with a compelling villain.
  • No minis. Minis add to the price-point of that initial pack. As you say: sell it as a game of imagination and story-telling, not a tactical tabletop game. [note: I love minis, and I think the game benefits from them - but sell them as supplements, not part of the basic set]
  • ...and, just for some heresy, bundle that basic 5e set into an established property. Release the 5e basic set with a big honking picture of Driz'zt on the front cover. Or Orlando/Legolas. Or Arthas from World of Warcraft. Or whatever else is "hot" with the younger crowd at the time of the release. Get the marketing tie-in, even if it costs additional in license.
Once the basic set is out, release some supplements quickly to expand the setting. Have some minis which represent the expected encounters in that bundled adventure, including the iconics from the chosen setting (e.g. Driz'zt, Legolas, Arthas, etc). Release a sequel module, and splatbooks for raising the level limits, and adding new classes/powers/items.

Then, finally, after 6 months, release the slipcase of hardcovers for the "advanced player".

Sure, it's the BECMI model... but that seemed to work, back in the day. I know basic sets have been released since, but they've been: a) released as an afterthought after the core rulebooks; b) focused on minis and boards; c) had limited support from sequels and expansions; d) not closely tied to recognizable settings.

Ruleswise, I'd keep a lot of 4e. I like the concept of power cards, especially for new players. However, I'd reduce the number of effects (pushes, pulls, etc) to try and reduce the dependency on battle grids and minis. I'd make the game a little faster-moving, even at the expense of some added lethality. I'd reduce the number of classes and races (more heresy), and slowly introduce more with the splats. For the basic set, I'd be happy with 4 races / 4 classes. Maybe even go really old-school and have races AS classes (e.g. I'm a 3rd level Elf!).

I'd allow for more power-swapping. I'd probably have powers broken down by source, rather than class. Martial, Stealth, Arcane, Nature, Divine, etc sources. A fighter can only pick from the Martial source, but gets special abilities like heavy armor use, more HP and more weapons. A ranger (for example) can pick from either the Martial or Nature sources. And so forth. Any class can "multi" by paying an additional "cost" (feat, point-buy, whatever) to choose from a different source. That adds some of 3e's class customization, while maintaining a level of balance. It also means you don't have the plethora of class-unique powers that 4e has, which can get unwieldy.

I'd apply more focus to the non-combat aspects of the game. A major disappointment for me is that 4e has added a good (albeit flawed, pre-errata) framework for skill challenges, and then issued an adventure path which is wall-to-wall combats. I'd emphasize the fun of the classic equipment-shopping expedition, gambling in taverns, exploring the wilderness, deciphering riddles or puzzles, evading traps, and so forth. I don't think more emphasis is needed in the rules - but you have to build those things into the modules. And less combats. Please. Thunderspire Labyrinth nearly killed me as a player, let alone as a character.
 

OD&D

Never played it, so can't comment.

BECMI

My first edition of D&D, so I have a lot of love for this game (though I only ever got as far as the 'C' tier).

Good: The tier system is fantastic. Bring new players in easily, then gradually ramp up the complexity as they go. The system is also relatively simple.

Bad: As with all pre-3e editions, the lack of a core mechanic makes for a game with several fiddly subsystems - AC goes down, thief skills are percentiles, etc. Also, races-as-classes is a bit wierd (though it might be good for a "young adult" game...)

AD&D 1ed

Never played it, so can't comment.

AD&D 2ed

Good: The addition of a lot of options (more races, more classes, multiclassing) improves the game over BECMI D&D.

Bad: Has pretty much all of the same weaknesses as BECMI. Also, many of the advancements either add lots of pointless complexity (weapon vs armour mods) or are just wierd quirks (exceptional strength). Also, eliminates the tiers almost entirely (although the game still changes somewhat around 'name' level).

D&D 3.xed

My current "D&D of choice", despite some significant weaknesses.

Good: Adds a unified mechanic. Massively cleans up the rules.

Bad: Even in the 3.0e core rulebooks, there is some shocking complexity, particularly at high levels. Spells like polymorph never worked right, despite several attempted revisions. By building in rule mastery to the games, they made it hard for 'casual' and 'hardcore' gamers to co-exist in the same group.

Oh, and this really isn't a great game to be introducing new players to. And DM prep takes way too long.

About 3.5e: On balance, I find 3.5e a better game than 3e, as it goes some way further towards cleaning up the rules, and corrects some imbalances. However, many of the 'improvements' were nothing of the sort: weapon sizes added more complexity than they were worth, weapon familiarity was awful, and the enhanced focus on the combat grid was absolutely toxic IMO.

D&D 4ed

I haven't played 4e extensively - just enough to determine it wasn't for me. Even so, I'd be happy to play 4e again; I just won't be running it again.

Good: The concept of Skill Challenges is brilliant. The encounter design methodology (monster roles, plus the minion/'normal'/elite/solo split) is also really good.

Bad: I detest the at-will/encounter/daily power split. I don't like class roles being so explicit or so rigid. Even playing it very briefly, the 'grind' was quite noticably and quite bad.

So much has changed that there are inevitably significant problems with the ruleset. I don't blame WotC for that (in some ways, a change had become essential), but it does mean there's a strong arguement for doing a '4.5e' revision. Shame they've painted themselves into a corner on that one.

And, at 832 pages in the core rules, this is not a good edition to introduce new players.

Pathfinder

Pathfinder pretty much has all the same strengths and weaknesses as 3.5e. Additional comments below.

Good: Combat Maneuver Bonus and Defence. Some rebalancing of the game.

Bad: Yet another round of power-creep. Yet more complexity added to the game (sorcerer bloodlines, wizard specialities, rage powers...)

On balance, Pathfinder is an improvement over 3.5e. Unfortunately, it's not "better enough" to persuade me to switch.

Plus, at 880 pages in the core rulebooks (and very dense text), it's not a game to introduce new players.

SWSE

Not really an edition of D&D, but very notable because I feel it quite closely resembles what a new edition should be...

Good: Uses the same 'core' as 3e, but with a vastly simplified set of rules. Is at once the first Star Wars game to adequately capture that setting and also the first iteration of the d20 mechanic (at least from WotC) to really show off the power of the core of the system.

At 250 pages, the core rulebook is pretty much the ideal size for introducing new players to the game.

Bad: Some options (notably Jedi) seem to be just too powerful. Also, with only 250 pages to play with, the range of options is necessarily limited.
 

I've posted about what I'd do with a new edition before, but here it is:

Products

I would structure the product line around a single core rulebook/starter set, with three 'circles' of supplements.

The core rulebook would be a single book of no more than 250 pages, at a reasonable text size. This would include all the rules required to play the game, although it would of necessity include only a limited set of options. (Most likely, it would include four core races, four core classes, and only part of the level range.)

Core Product

On day 1, the big flagship product would be a big boxed set game, entitled simply "Dungeons & Dragons". The box would be aimed primarily at new players, would include everything required to play, and would be designed to get people up and playing quickly. So, it would include the Core Rulebook, a Quick-start Guide, an Adventure Book, pregenerated characters, dice, miniatures, spell templates, character sheets, dungeon tiles... heck, it should probably include a pack of pencils!

At the same time, I would make the Core Rulebook available separately, primarily for established players who want to get the new rules, but don't necessarily want to pay for all the 'fiddly bits'.

Key point: It would be the same Core Rulebook in each case. That way, the boxed set should retain its value when players graduate to the 'real' game - they're using the same rules, and they're using the same rulebook.

Expansions to the Core Product

I would be very tempted to put out an annual (or perhaps less frequent) expansion to the Boxed Set version of the game. This would include a new Adventure Book, more dungeon tiles, more miniatures, new pregenerated characters, and a bunch of other goodies. This would be intended for people who like the game as it is, don't want to deal with the hassle of graduating to the 'real' game, but just want more.

Circle One Supplements

Soon after the release of the core products, I would release my first circle of supplements. This would consist of somewhere between 2 and 6 hardback books that put back the 'missing' elements of the core. So, it is here that the remaining PC races and classes would be added, the rest of the level range would be covered, and so on and so forth. These books would be designed so that they form an interlocking set: you can use them with the Core Rulebook alone, but it is assumed that most people will use all of them or none of them.

Likely titles: Advanced Players Handbook, Advanced Dungeon Masters Guide, Grimoire, Tome of Treasures, Bestiary (possibly 2 volumes).

Key point: These books are supplements to the Core Rulebook, not replacements. So, character creation will only be in the Core Rulebook, monsters won't be reprinted, and so on. Again, this is about ensuring the boxed set retains its value - when people graduate to the 'real' game, we don't want them to feel they've wasted the money spent so far.

Circle Two Supplements

These are the supplements we're currently used to, such as the splatbooks for the various races and classes, DM aides, and so forth. Essentially, everything that isn't setting-specific would be here.

With Circle Two supplements, the assumption would be that you're using the Circle One supplements, but no other Circle Two supplements. While you may be able to use parts of the new "Complete Guide to Fighters" with just the Core Rulebook, the book will be written assuming you aren't doing this.

Circle Three Supplements

This would be everything setting-specific. It would also include pre-generated adventures.

With Circle Three supplements, the assumption will generally be that you're using the Circle One supplements only. However, they may occasionally use or build on material from Circle Two - but they shouldn't rely heavily on them. (c.f. the use of Psionics in 3e Eberron - it's mentioned, but far from essential.)

The DDI

This would include elements that tie in to all three circles. Because the DDI gives you access to so much, I don't think there's any great harm in tying it in to all levels. (There may be scope for allowing users to indicate which books they have, or even just if they're using the Core Rulebook alone or the full set of Circle One supplements.)

The Rules

Levels

I would bring back (but rename) the tiers from BECM D&D, including the Beginner tier that is missing from 4e (but not the ultra-fragile low-level PCs; 4e was right to eliminate those).

Beginner tier (1-3): At this level, characters would have an essentially fixed set of powers determined by class. There would be few fiddly choices for players to make at this level - the goal would be to get them playing quickly, and add complexity later.

Expert tier (4-14): At this level, characters rapidly gain in power. Players would have many more options for customising their characters, including multiclassing. The emphasis of play would be on the character's exploits - he's a hero in his own right.

Comander tier (15-25): At this level, characters reach the upper levels of their ability, and gain power much more slowly. The emphasis of the game would be on the characters being inspirational figures, leading armies, training apprentices, and taming the wilderness.

Master tier (26-36): At this level, characters continue to gain personal power slowly. The emphasis of the game is on building a legacy: characters rule nations, plumb the mysteries of the universe, and other similarly epic things.

The game would include advice for starting the campaign at the lowest level in each tier (for those who want to skip Beginner play, for example). Advice would also be given for adding 'back' the missing customisation options for Beginner characters (this would be aimed at more advanced players, though - the default would be to not have it, for the benefit of new players).

The Core Rulebook would include only the first two tiers: Beginner and Expert. Rules for Commander and Master play would be deferred until later.

Ability Scores

I would be inclined to go with a 4d6-drop-lowest in order method to create characters by default. I would also be inclined to reduce the importance of ability scores - +1 per 3 points rather than +1 per 2 as in 3e and 4e.

Temporary effects that adjust ability scores would be eliminated; permanent effects that adjust ability scores would be made much more rare.

Races and Classes

I would include only the Human, Dwarf, Elf and Halfling races and the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard in the Core Rulebook. Obviously, for the 'real' game, I see no reason to limit the available classes or races.

Structurally, I would have each race give a small number of innate abilities (perhaps Elves get +2 perception for their keen eyesight, for example), and also access to a racial talent tree (to allow later customisation).

Each class would grant access to three talent trees (probably one per level in the Beginner tier, with the order being 'fixed' by default). Each class would also provide a list of bonus feats available to characters of that class.

Customising Characters

Characters are customised by two means: feats and talents.

Characters gain a feat at every even-numbered level (meaning that the first one is gained at 2nd level, sparing a new player from studying a big list of options before playing for the first time).

Characters gain a talent at every level, chosen from any of the trees to which they have access. Characters gain access to trees due to race, class, and (optionally) alignment(s). Additionally, there would be a feat granting access to a new talent of the player's choice. (There would also be 'prestige trees', available only to higher-level characters. These would replace the 3e "Prestige Classes".) When the character increases in level, the player may select a new talent from any of the trees to which he has access, regardless of what class he has just gained the level in.

However, a player may opt to take a bonus feat instead of a talent. This feat must be selected from the list of bonus feats for the class he has just gained a level in.

(Multiclassing is quite simple in this system: when the character gains the first level in a new class, he gains access to all of the trees for that class. Thereafter, he may buy talents from those trees normally.)

Skills

Skills basically work as in Pathfinder: Each class has a set of class skills, and grants a number of ranks. Characters can have a number of ranks in any skill equal to their level (with a cap of 15 in any case), and if they have any ranks in a class skill, they get a +3 bonus on the skill.

The skill list would also be essentially that of Pathfinder, except for the introduction of an Athletics skill (combining Climb, Swim and Fly, but also the Jump function of Acrobatics, and Run), and a "Ride/Drive" skill (covering Ride, but also things like driving chariots, controlling ships, and so on).

A Skill Challenge mechanic would be put in place.

Combat

The combat system would be more or less as in 3e. The Combat Maneuver Bonus/Defense mechanic from Pathfinder would be used. However, I am strongly inclined to de-emphasise the grid.

The 'real' version of the game would add a robust Stunting mechanic, to try to add a bit more flavour to combat.

Multiple attacks (both from high BAB and other sources) would be gone. Instead, characters would get extra dice of damage in their pool, and would be able to assign that damage to a target or targets as they wish (splitting would be less efficient).

Encounter Design

This would be done essentially as in 4e, including the Minion/'normal'/Elite/Solo split. Everything should be balanced on a per-encounter basis.

Other

Trivial modifiers, especially trivial conditional modifiers would be eliminated. The number of 'named' bonus types would be sharply reduced. The number of exceptions in the rules would be cut right back.
 



OD&D(1974)
The Good - easy of use. rules as guidelines. you can play whatever you want as character as long as the referee approves it for the campaign. no end to imagination. very good for freeform play. also works in tournaments/conventions. teaches cooperation in the party. a great transition game for any wargamer.
The Bad - the introduction of stat modifications and spiralling upward supplements.
The Ugly - no longer in print. :( so it is hard to get copies and gamers to play.

BECMI
The Good - easy of play. with the Rules cyclopedia all the rules are in one book
The Bad - too intertwined. some of the products out there for other editions or publishers take much more work to convert to this game.
The Ugly - too much like Hackmaster.

1edADnD
The Good - well distributed. easy to finding gamers. great for conventions or tournaments. a lot of product available.
The Bad - bad rep from back in the day still lingering today.
The Ugly - continued powercreep

2edADnD
The Good - a lot of product available. easy to find product that hasn't even been opened
The Bad - removal of D&D icons and tropes b/c of fears of what others think.
The Ugly - a lot of product available. much of it contradicts each other. powergaming nightmare

2000ed and 3.11ed for Workgroups
The Good - it is no longer in print
The Bad - based on a "need" for balance. d02
The Ugly - it killed all other previous editions available b/c they might compete with it. OGL is teh SUXX

D&D 4ed
The Good - it killed d02
The Bad - it took its stuff
The Ugly - and made it worse. powergaming trend is alive and prospering
 
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I think I'll sit this edition war thread out.

Any chance we can give these a rest for a millenia or tow?

Simply talking about different editions, or even comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of different editions, doesn't automatically make for an edition war, you know. :)

Or am I being foolish in thinking we can remain civil?
 

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