templates & skill points

[Sektat]

A human dragon disciple reaches level 10 of his prestige class (where the type changes from humanoid to dragon). Do I get the extra +1 skill point from my base class "humanoid" for the next levels?

Same situation with a half celestial human paladin. If I create a level 2 half celestial human paladin with intelligence 10, what are his skill points? 10 or 15?

 

[LonePaladin]

Templates don't grant extra skill points unless they specifically say so in their descriptions. In the case of half-dragons and half-celestials, they use the skill points of their type (dragon or outsider) for racial Hit Dice. Humans don't have racial Hit Dice, so they don't get extra skill points.

So, your half-dragon doesn't get any more skills than his class grants, and your 2nd-level half-celestial paladin has 10 skill points. (I'm assuming the 10 Intelligence is after the template's +2 bonus.)

 

[Sektat]

Thx for your answer.
It seems a bit odd. The 2nd level half-celestial human paladin DOES get the extra feat on level 1 from beeing human, agree? But he does not get the extra 4 skill points?! I think humans get skill points from class levels, not from racial hit dices.

 

[LonePaladin]

You're right, they do. Humans (and, indeed, most creatures of the Humanoid type) don't have racial Hit Dice. If you make a half-celestial human, he still has all the traits that a human normally would: one bonus feat, +1 skill point per level, all that. The template doesn't change those.

You didn't specify the base creature for the paladin. If he's human, he gets the same skill points as any other 2nd-level human paladin: 15 + 5 × Int mod (min 10). Since your average half-celestial human would have a 12 Intelligence, this would be 20 points, enough to max out 4 skills.

If you took a creature with racial Hit Dice (say, a bugbear) and made it half-celestial, you would calculate its racial skills using an outsider's skill points, but its class skills would be the same as all bugbears. Any class levels it picks up get skill points normally (for instance, a half-celestial ogre barbarian 1 with an 8 Intelligence [the average] would have 49 skill points for its racial skills, and 3 skill points for barbarian skills).

 

[Sektat]

Again, thx for your answer!

> You didn't specify the base creature for the paladin

Actually I did. From the first post:

> If I create a level 2 half celestial human paladin

So back to the dragon disciple who aquired his half dragon template through the prestige class. If the human level 5 fighter / level 10 dragon disciple reaches level 16 (taking another figher level) he gets the free skill point from his previous human race although his type is now dragon?

 

[Elethiomel]

So back to the dragon disciple who aquired his half dragon template through the prestige class. If the human level 5 fighter / level 10 dragon disciple reaches level 16 (taking another figher level) he gets the free skill point from his previous human race although his type is now dragon?

Why wouldn't he? His extra skill point is a result of him being of the Human base race, not of his being of the "Humanoid" type.

 

[darthkilmor]

Why wouldn't he? His extra skill point is a result of him being of the Human base race, not of his being of the "Humanoid" type.

Why Would he? His type is no longer Humanoid(Human), why should he get extra skill points when he levels? Would he still get extra skill points if he's reincarnated into a bugbear?

Edit:

Skills

A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.

 

[Scribbler]

Why Would he? His type is no longer Humanoid(Human), why should he get extra skill points when he levels? Would he still get extra skill points if he's reincarnated into a bugbear?

Edit:

Normal for a human [something] is class amount + Int + 1.
It doesn't matter what type he is. He gets his racial benefits. When a class changes you to outsider type, you keep your racial traits.

A templates traits are in addition to the normal race's traits. Reincarnation changes your normal race completely.

 

[darthkilmor]

Normal for a human [something] is class amount + Int + 1.
It doesn't matter what type he is. He gets his racial benefits. When a class changes you to outsider type, you keep your racial traits.

A templates traits are in addition to the normal race's traits. Reincarnation changes your normal race completely.

Skills

Some templates change how skill points are determined, but this change usually only affects skill points gained after the template is applied

Half dragon entry says you gain skills as normal. Would a dragon-bane weapon or a human-bane weapon deal extra dmg, or both? If the template changes his type to dragon, I dont see why he should still receive benefits of being a human. If so, wouldn't he still be affected by something like, a rangers favored enemy(human)?

 

[LonePaladin]

Bane weapons and rangers' favored enemies are based on creature type. Technically, applying either template would remove vulnerability to things keyed to humanoids.

Because both templates alter something, they would add the augmented subtype, so the half-dragon's type would read "Dragon (augmented humanoid)". This basically means that its features are based on the original type, though it has its abilities and vulnerabilities determined by the new one. An evil character with the half-fiendish template would then be affected by spells that target evil outsiders (though he would also likely have the native subtype, meaning that spells like dismissal won't send him to another plane).

As for the skill-point question, the bonus skill point that humans get is a racial ability, just like dwarves' stonecunning, elves' skill bonuses to Listen and Spot, and gnomes' innate spells. Acquiring a template that changes an elf from a humanoid to an outsider doesn't get rid of his free proficiencies, low-light vision, or skill bonuses, so it wouldn't remove a human's bonus skill point either.