Telekinesis and Rings thereof

[UltimaGabe]

Hey, everyone. Having noticed how great the Telekinesis spell is, and realizing how useful a Ring of Such would be, I noticed a few things I needed to clarify before I shell out 75,000 gp for one:

Several times in the description, they mention using Telekinesis to perform various combat maneuvers (such as Bull Rush, Trip, or even just attacking with a Telekinesed weapon). In these descriptions, they say to use your Intelligence (if you're a Wizard) or Charisma (if you're a Sorcerer) bonus in place of Strength or Dexterity (in the case of a Bull Rush or Trip or something), and to use your Base Attack Bonus plus your relevant ability score, Charisma or Intelligence (in the case of attacking or grappling).

Now, this is all plain and simple if you're actually casting the spell, but what if you're not?

Let's say you're a Fighter using a Ring of Telekinesis. The save DC will always be the minimum for the spell (17 for a 5th-level spell), but is everything else minimum, or does it depend on you? For example, do you use your Base Attack Bonus, or the Base Attack Bonus of a Sorcerer/Wizard at the minimum level necessary to cast the spell (that is, +4)? And do you use your Charisma or Intelligence modifier, or the Charisma or Intelligence modifier of the creator? In that case, do you use the minimum needed to cast the spell (a 15, granting you a +2 bonus, for a total +6 attack/grapple bonus)? Or do you use your own Base Attack Bonus and relevant Ability scores? Because if you use the minimum for everything, you're never going to be good at hitting, grappling, diarming, tripping, or doing much of anything but moving objects weighing up to 225 pounds.

Also, sort of a little side-question regarding Telekinesis- assuming you fall under the weight limit of the spell, could you theoretically fly by moving yourself with a Ring of Telekinesis, and just voluntarily failing the save? Could you lift your allies, and make them fly as well? I'm aware this wouldn't be a good combat maneuver, as it takes concentration (a standard action) to do so, but it would be helpful to cross pits and scale tall buildings and whatnot. Is this allowed?

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

I would say you use the min requirements of the class that created the item. Using your own should bump the price of the ring as it would clearly be better than what the base price is based on.

 

[Shayuri]

As the rules are written, you do indeed use the minimum attributes necessary to cast the spell that the item is simulating. This applies not only to DC's, but any other situation where attributes are important for determining item function.

BAB however is not a function of attribute, but of caster level. You would indeed use the BAB of a wizard or sorceror of the same level as the caster level of the item. However, any item can, for an additional cost, be created at a level over the minimum stated in the SRD or DMG. Thus the BAB of a Ring of Telekinesis could be higher than +4. It would then cost commensurately more though.

As for your questions regarding lifting, it's definitely possible to lift companions that fit within the weight limit (if they voluntarily fail their save, of course). You can't move them very fast unless you violently hurl them, but it could be used as you suggest to navigate pits and other obstacles.

But you can't, as I understand it, target yourself with a TK spell. There is a Prestige Class called Master of the Unseen Hand that lets you pull this stunt, but aside from that, I don't think it's possible using the base spell.

 

[Someone]

Hm, you can´t target creatures with the "sustained force" effect of Telekinesis, only objects (attended ones get a saving throw). You can hurl enemies with the violent thrust option.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I see why you can't move yourself or others with the sustained force; however, I don't see any indication that you can't propel yourself with a violent thrust.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

As the rules are written, you do indeed use the minimum attributes necessary to cast the spell that the item is simulating. This applies not only to DC's, but any other situation where attributes are important for determining item function.

BAB however is not a function of attribute, but of caster level. You would indeed use the BAB of a wizard or sorceror of the same level as the caster level of the item. However, any item can, for an additional cost, be created at a level over the minimum stated in the SRD or DMG. Thus the BAB of a Ring of Telekinesis could be higher than +4. It would then cost commensurately more though.
................<snip>

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Doesn't it strike anyone as rather paradoxical, that the minimum caster level to create a ring of telekinesis would be 9th, if the "Forge Ring" feat is available only at 12th and higher levels ?

So I , IMC, would assume that all stats etc. related to level and not affecting the spell's variables directly (like the selectable caster level possible in item creation ), would reflect the unaltered stats of the minimum caster level required to create the item in question. Because I, for one, do not see how a creator can choose to "unlearn" his fighting/self-defence skills - although he/she can choose just how much power he intends to invest into the spell effect imbued, but that is something any caster can choose to do.
Not that it would do much good - BA increase to +6/+1 (for a 12th level wizard) - when compared to a fighter of similar level.

Personally, what I wonder about more is, just how fast the ring "recharges" after having used a "one-off" power like hurling an opponent, which usually ends the spell.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Hm, you can´t target creatures with the "sustained force" effect of Telekinesis, only objects (attended ones get a saving throw). You can hurl enemies with the violent thrust option.

Easily resolved - put the character to be moved onto a sturdy/solid platform of reasonable weight and move that with the "subject" on top of it - much like a serving tray. Most shields or doors will suffice for this, as might large baskets, grids or similar objects. And yes, this of course assumes the character to be transported "fails" his saving throw voluntarily.

Could you transport yourself with this method ? I wouldn't say so - would be like lifting yourself up by pulling up on your own shoelaces. YMMV

 

[UltimaGabe]

Personally, what I wonder about more is, just how fast the ring "recharges" after having used a "one-off" power like hurling an opponent, which usually ends the spell.

It doesn't need to "recharge"- it just needs to be activated again, taking another Standard Action.

Could you transport yourself with this method ? I wouldn't say so - would be like lifting yourself up by pulling up on your own shoelaces. YMMV

If you're believing in an ability that can lift things without any physical interaction, I think you've gone beyond the idea of lifting yourself by your shoelaces. If you go and pick up something heavy, you're pushing one thing (the heavy object) by pushing against something else (the ground). You obviously can't lift yourself like this, because part of you has to be pushing against the ground, and that would defeat the entire purpose. It's possible, however, to temporarily lift yourself by pushing against the ground violently, such as jumping.

Telekinesis, however, requires no transfer or force- meaning, you don't have to have anything to push against to lift an object. Thus, no part of you still has to be touching the ground, and there's no logical reason why you could lift someone else and not yourself.

 

[ARandomGod]

It doesn't need to "recharge"- it just needs to be activated again, taking another Standard Action.

Yup. Just spend the action required to reactivate the ring after using it. Easy. This works also when attacking using a ring of invisibility.

Could you transport yourself with this method ? I wouldn't say so - would be like lifting yourself up by pulling up on your own shoelaces. YMMV

If you're believing in an ability that can lift things without any physical interaction, I think you've gone beyond the idea of lifting yourself by your shoelaces. If you go and pick up something heavy, you're pushing one thing (the heavy object) by pushing against something else (the ground). You obviously can't lift yourself like this, because part of you has to be pushing against the ground, and that would defeat the entire purpose. It's possible, however, to temporarily lift yourself by pushing against the ground violently, such as jumping.

Telekinesis, however, requires no transfer or force- meaning, you don't have to have anything to push against to lift an object. Thus, no part of you still has to be touching the ground, and there's no logical reason why you could lift someone else and not yourself.

It really all depends on your wizards viewpoint. It's where he's putting his metaphysical axis, so to speak. If he's holding it, he can't so it. On the other hand, if he's holding the axis, that could cause a lot of problems. I personally recommend that he use something else as a base, otherwise he'll take some significant damage when using the ring on large objects.

Alternatively, instead of trying to pull himself up with TK, push the world down instead. The mage will be lighter, and will therefore go up.

 

[shilsen]

Oh, great! UltimaGabe is violently thrusting himself, ARandomGod is holding his metaphysical axis - I can just see hong salivating at the sight of this thread