Tanglefoot Bags of DOOM

[The Souljourner]

So last night my DM threw (heh) a bunch of Tanglefoot bag wielding hobgoblins at us. At first we laughed, then we groaned as we almost got toasted by these innocent looking little bags.

Here's the skinny:

Tanglefoot Bag: Throw this round leather bag full of alchemical goo as a grenadelike weapon. When the bag is thrown against a creature (as a ranged touch attack), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient on exposure to air. An entangled creature suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls and a -4 penalty to effective Dexterity. The entangled character must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even with a successful save, it can only move at half speed.

A character who is glued to the floor can break free with a successful Strength check (DC 27) or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A character trying to scrape goo off himself, or another character assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the character who hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo he happened to scrape off. Once free, a character can move at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a Concentration check (DC 15) to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 10 minutes.

Doesn't sound too bad, except that my DM read the rules and decided that breaking the bag only freed you from the immobility, not from the penalties to hit and dex or movement reduction. Those he ruled last until the goo turns brittle, which is 10 minutes away.

So now we have a -4 dex and -2 to hit weapon that only requires a touch attack to work. Does that sound a little ridiculous to anyone else?

Also, the DM ruled that since they are typeless penalties, they stack with each other (kinda makes sense, you just get more and more goo on you). Imagine what you could do with rapid shot and quickdraw and a bunch of tanglefoot bags.... dragon got you down? Have the party throw a ton of tanglefoot bags at it... touch attacks at AC 8 or less? Sure, we can hit that. three hits and the dragon is at 0 dex and can't move. Hrm.... something not quite right here.

Can anyone else come up with an argument as to why dealing the 15 points of damage doesn't remove all penalties?

-Nate aka The Souljourner

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Can anyone else come up with an argument as to why dealing the 15 points of damage doesn't remove all penalties?

Because the rules say so?

It is pretty clear in stating that slashing at it can break free from being "glued to the floor". It says nothing about the penalties encrued from being entangled by it.

SD

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Hate to say it, but based on the way the rules read, I'd agree with your DM on everything except stacking the penalties (I see the argument about more bags, but I just wouldn't do it).

As I read it, the Reflex save only prevents you from being stuck; the 15 points of damage serves the same purpose as the reflex save.

Look at the Entangle spell description -- even if you make the strength check and break free, you still move at half-speed. (of course, for Entangle if you make the save, you don't have the attack/Dex penalties that you do if you fail it -- it would be nice if both the spell and teh tanglefoot bag used the same mechanic).

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

The important part to remember with entangle is that entangle comes in two 'flavors', anchored and unanchored. The reflex save and the 15 points of damage merely serve to prevent you from being anchored entangled. Once you're hit you're entangled. As a side note you can't really have the entangled descriptor more than once so the penalties shouldn't stack.

With the Entangle spell the saving throw prevents you from being entangled at all. The half speed reduction is probably due to the plants being unruly in the area of effect.

The DMG has a fairly good section on entangled effects in the condition summary part.

Tanglefoot bags are nice, a touch pricey but oft times worth it.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

Perhaps they should have included some rules about targets of diffrent size. It's going to take a truckload of tanglefoot bags to cover a dragon so that it can't move, but throw a bag at a pixie, and it'll be lucky not to suffocate under all that crap...

Maitre D

 

[Forrester]

Yes, without any errata, TF bags are extraordinarily broken. It's a touch-attack weapon that gives -4 to dex, -2 to hit, AND, most importantly, makes the target move at half-speed . . . yep, that's *extremely* broken.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Perhaps they should have included some rules about targets of diffrent size.
Maitre D

I use the universal "doubling per size increase" rule so it takes 2 tanglefoots to get a large, 4 for a huge, 8 for gigantic, and 16 for colossal.

You can't be glued to the ground with less than the full number of bags. At 1/2 the needed bags you suffer 1/2 the entagle penalties (no movement penalty). So 1 tanglefoot on an ogre will give it a -2dex/-1 attack.

Of course, I also rule that an creature with an elemental attack can blast off the material and eliminate the entangle with the 15 hp/bag (The strength test DC does not change being a square-footage deal).

 

[Suldulin]

turn it around on the dm, get some tangle foot bags and save them for the next bbeg and throw enmass with touch attacks until they're at 0 dex and then coup de grace

 

[Kershek]

Tanglefoot bags are overpowered and not well defined. We house-ruled them straight out of our campaigns entirely.

 

[Maitre Du Donjon]

I use the universal "doubling per size increase" rule so it takes 2 tanglefoots to get a large, 4 for a huge, 8 for gigantic, and 16 for colossal.

You can't be glued to the ground with less than the full number of bags. At 1/2 the needed bags you suffer 1/2 the entagle penalties (no movement penalty). So 1 tanglefoot on an ogre will give it a -2dex/-1 attack.

Of course, I also rule that an creature with an elemental attack can blast off the material and eliminate the entangle with the 15 hp/bag (The strength test DC does not change being a square-footage deal).

Something along those lines would make quite a lot of sense