Talent Trees & D&D

satori01

First Post
My copy of the new Star Wars Saga RPG has yet to arrive, but I love the fact that Talent Trees were used for the various classes.

Monte Cook recently posted something about feats on his website and noted there is something of a problem with feats because of the finite nature of how many you get, and the idea that a feat needs to stay relatively constant in value over the life of a character, many flavorful feats are ignored for more practical feats like say Power Attack.

Monte theorized you could solve this by dividing feats into Tier 1 and Tier 2 categories with one category being weighed more heavily than the other.

I think talents solves this problem, and gives a further opportunity to add flavor and focus to a character. In a case like a Druid, where as now there are different feats that allow one to expand upon the forms you can take in Wildshape, those type of abilities can be handled by having a Wildshape Talent tree...the same can be done for Animal Companions, and even spell casting as well.

Imagine instead of Divine Feats based off Turn Undead, you had instead a Holy Aura Talent tree, that incorporates Divine style feats. With Talents a class ability like Turn Undead does not even have to be a mandatory power, it could be an optional ability from a Talent Tree.

Likewise, certain overlapping classes can be combined. In Star Wars the Fringer class was condensed to being a talent tree, the same realistically could be done for the Scout class, wrapping it into the Ranger class. Paladin and Ranger spellcasting instead of being an automatic class ability could instead be an option granted by a Talent tree, letting those that do not like the idea of spellcasting warriors, play the concept they want w/o special rules, or alternative classes.

The best thing of all, is since World of Warcraft is a very popular game, many people are already familiar with the concept.

I love the idea, and think not only is it the future, but it would not be hard to retrocon the idea onto the exsisting classes.
 

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Talent trees are already sorta in 3e if you use books outside of the core. The alternate class abilities essentially are talent trees.
 

Hm. I'm generally a staunch advocate of the True20-style turn-everything-into-a-feat approach, but you do make a good case for retaining a distinction between feats and talents. While I really, really like well-done generic classes, talent trees would be a great way to make classes flexible without going all the way to the generic warrior-expert-mage model, and using feats and talents to represent two distinct levels of power and utility is a good idea. Color me optimistic.
 

Remember before 3E when we had a whole rainbow of resolution mechanics? (d20 roll high for attacks, d20 roll low for abilities, d6 for init/surprise, percent for thief skills). And how everyone acclaimed the single resolution mechanic of the d20 System?

Well, I think we have the same problem when character abilities comes from classes, prestige classes, feat choices, skill points, talent trees, etc. When I tried to use d20 Modern I just couldn't handle it anymore. There needs to be a single mechanic for gaining class abilities in D&D... as it is, it currently looks like mishmash of every other RPG that's been released in the last 20 years.

Nothing wrong with talent trees as such. But you need to sweep off the board classes, skills, and feats if you seriously want a mass market game (but maybe you don't).
 

While I like the idea of trees, I guess I will have to see them in action to be convinced. I really like feats in 3.x. I can create interesting characters that are way outside typical archetypes that you might find in books.

If they were to do 4e, I would hope to see an ability to create a character "from scratch" e.g. No class per say, you just pick your BaB progression/spells/saves/skills in some sort of build point/cost structure.
 


painandgreed said:
I see no advantage of talents trees over feat trees, while they complicate things in the process.

I'm not advocating trees over feats, or the other way around, but I don't see how a tree is more complicated. Can you give an example of what you mean?

jolt
 

It wouldn't be too hard to create some talent trees based on current PrC/base class abilities.

Fighter
* Archer (bow/missile atks)
* Brawler (unarmed strikes)
* Knight (armor/horseman)
* Weaponmaster (weapon specialization)
* Beserker (rage)
* Huntsman (Favored Enemy, Favored Critical)

Cleric
* Positive Channeler (Curing, Turn Undead)
* Negative Channeler (Inflicting, Rebuke Undead)
* Shapeshifter (Wild-Shape, 1,000 faces)
* Spirit Guide (Spirit Ability from Sp. Shaman)
* Nature's Guardian (Nature Sense, Pass without Trace)
* Divine Warrior (Smite, Divine Grace, Wings, etc)

Wizard
* Evoker (energy/elemental damage, swap energy)
* Conjurer (Augment Summoning, Rapid Summons)
* Enchanter (Combat Charming, Social Skill)
* Illusionist (Semi-corporal illusions, Resist Disbelief)
* Necromancer (Augment Undead, Undead Traits)
* Diviner (Improved Omens, Re-roll Outcome)
* Transmuter (Improve Shapechanging, Augment Ability)
* Abjurer (Mage Armor, Magical Ward)
* Wizardry (Familiar, Metamagic)

Rogue
* Trapfinder (Trapfinding and Trap Sense)
* Assassin (Opportunist, Death Attack, Crippling Strike)
* Agility (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge)
* Shadowdancer (Camouflages/Hide in Plain Sight)
* Duelist (Weapon Finesse, Swashbuckler abilities)
* Survivalist (Nature-abilities, Skirmish)

Bard
* Inspiration (Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics)
* Beguiler (Charm, Glibness)
* Loremaster (Bardic Know, Bardic Knack, Identify Item)
* Dirgemaster (Fear, Despair)

And So on...
 

I like the class talent tree system, but it reminds me of Skills and Powers a bit. And, well, Skills and powers wasn't exactly the most balanced thing in the game.

As for different Tier Feats - it's something I've been thinking of for a long time.

I think the system would work better if talents weren't restricted to classes (since, with each new book, you'd essentially have to rework classes to incorporate the new talents). I think if you just said "here's a talent, here's the prerequisites) and then if you meet the prereqs (whether you be a ranger, fighter, cleric or bard) you can take the talent. Meanwhile, feats become slightly less powerful, and can be used to develop your character just a little bit (so I can take Alertness or Toughness again!)
 

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