Swordsage, how to go about it

[Hexer]

Hi everyone, havent been around for a while but here I am again

We are starting a new D&D3.5 game, probably only 2 players (me being one of them) +GM.
The setting will probably be completely inside a big city and the theme will be pretty much along the lines of sneaking, stealing, assasinating and similar stuff. Overall a more rougue oriented thing.

The other partymember will play a Ninja and I've pretty much decided to start a Swordsage because its a martial class but still has stuff like move silently, climb and so on which will probably be pretty important.
Now its my first time using Tome of Battle and also my first time playing a martially focused class. I'm reading up on the rules I will need but thought it would be a good idea to post here to ask:

1. Are there any ultimate "dos and donts" to playing a Swordsage?
2. What are the basics for assigning my attributes for one?
3. Are there any simple but great multiclassing options or prestige classes for this? (it wont be a powergaming game and I dont want some hugely complex build but sometimes there are simple combinations that just do what you want)

I'm looking mainly to play the capable and mean melee fighter that can keep up with the sneaky/silent theme.
Race has to be decided still, might be human or some kind of half elf or maybe a halforc OR I've even thought about a kind of half-orc/half-elf if a good option for that exists.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. Ultimate DO: Take Adaptive Style. At level 1. You cannot function properly without it. Also, DO take flaws if possible. Swordsage is one of the most horrifically feat-starved classes in all of 3E, IMO.

2. Depends on what you're doing. If you can afford feats for Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse (and most likely if going that route, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, since its the only Shadow Hand weapon that doesn't suck), obviously dex is the highest priority. Swordsage is very multiple ability dependent, just like monk, though. Leave int at 10 if you're not doing tripping / setting sun throws, charisma is a total dump stat. But you need lots of dex, good con and strength, and a decent wisdom helps to compensate for the light armor and no shields. However, later on when you can afford masterwork and/or mithral shields, wisdom is much less necessary if you're not using a 2-handed weapon (even if you are, animated shields become an option ~level 12...). Point is, wisdom helps at early levels and gradually becomes less critical over time.

3. Swordsage is actually the only ToB class that doesn't have a messed up stance progression, so there's less reason to multiclass from it than the other 2. If you mutliclass at all, it would likely be a full BAB class w/ bonus feats (Fighter or Swashbuckler, most likely) to help with your feats problem. If you don't mind destroying your BAB a bit, for the stealthy kind of game you described, Martial Rogue 1-2 might be the best multiclass option (and if doing so you might want your 1st level to be in Rogue so you get the x4 multiplier on the higher skill point total, though then you can't get Adaptive Style till level 3). Martial Rogue gets feats as a Fighter, so you get one at levels 1 AND 2, so dip 1 or 2, however much you need for the feats you want. Final thing I'll say on multiclassing is...Adaptive Style simultaneously refreshes maneuvers from ALL your adept classes, so dipping Warblade or Crusader (preferably later on so you can pick up some mid-level maneuvers) could be handy. I think Warblade synergizes better with swordsage, though crusader has less overlap (having to keep track of their granted maneuvers is annoying as hell, though).

Race: What is available to you? Whisper Gnome from Races of Stone is a solid sneaker, and being small sized means you can use the awesome Soaring Raptor Strike (3rd level Tiger Claw) on almost anything. In the Monster Manual, Deep Halflings and Forest Gnomes are both nice sneaky small races. Wood Elf is a cool medium race if you can deal with the -2 con hit. Regular PHB dwarves are also good, mainly just cause they're good at anything that's not charisma-based.

 

[Hexer]

Actually I thought about wood elf as well since it kind of captures the same thing as the elf/orc thing but is less hassle (doesnt need extra thinking/ruling).

Where can I find stuff about flaws? I dont really know anything about those so far

 

[NimbleNZ]

Take the diamond mind stances!

level 1: moment of perfect mind (will)
level 2: action before thought (reflex)
level 5: mind over body (fortitude)

what do these stances do? they turn all your saving throws into concentration checks!

now you have one stat, CON, which powers your HP and ALL your saves.

AND your saves progress faster than they would do from any class, because you can gain a rank for every level up (not sure if concenration is a class skill for swordsage...maybe a 2 level dip into monk for concentration as a class skill and evasion!).

hope that helps!

NimbleNZ

 

[NimbleNZ]

here's a link about flaws:

Character Flaws :: d20srd.org

basically you're allowed 2 and you get a feat for each flaw you take.

traits are cool too, ill see if i can find a link for those.

EDIT: here ya go http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm

enjoy !

 

[xigbar]

If you take Wood Elf, you could qualify for the Eternal Blade prestige class.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Take the diamond mind stances!

level 1: moment of perfect mind (will)
level 2: action before thought (reflex)
level 5: mind over body (fortitude)

what do these stances do? they turn all your saving throws into concentration checks!

now you have one stat, CON, which powers your HP and ALL your saves.

A few things:
1. These are maneuvers, NOT stances. Don't confuse the poor OP, there is a huge difference.
2. Swordsage already has great base reflex and will saves and tends to have decent de and wis scores, MoPM and Action Before Thought are very unnecessary. I do think every Swordsage should have Mind Over Body, though.
3. These all occupy maneuvers known and readied, which is especially why learning the other 2 is a waste of resources.
4. These are al immediate actions to use, so you can only use one per round, and doing so means no swift actions the following round for you. That can get really annoying. And once you use it, until you take a full round action to Adaptive Style or refresh it the normal way, you don't have it anymore, an enemy could just spam the same attack on you. In short, even with Mind Over Body, it's not some fool proof thing you can rely on to always save your ass.
5. The best thing about these maneuvers is not auto failing on a 1. Since most save-or-dies are fortitude as well as poisons, again, Mind Over Body is the clear MVP for Swordsage.

AND your saves progress faster than they would do from any class, because you can gain a rank for every level up (not sure if concenration is a class skill for swordsage...maybe a 2 level dip into monk for concentration as a class skill and evasion!).

It is a class skill for Swordsage already.

 

[NimbleNZ]

A few things:
1. These are maneuvers, NOT stances. Don't confuse the poor OP, there is a huge difference.
2. Swordsage already has great base reflex and will saves and tends to have decent de and wis scores, MoPM and Action Before Thought are very unnecessary. I do think every Swordsage should have Mind Over Body, though.
3. These all occupy maneuvers known and readied, which is especially why learning the other 2 is a waste of resources.
4. These are al immediate actions to use, so you can only use one per round, and doing so means no swift actions the following round for you. That can get really annoying. And once you use it, until you take a full round action to Adaptive Style or refresh it the normal way, you don't have it anymore, an enemy could just spam the same attack on you. In short, even with Mind Over Body, it's not some fool proof thing you can rely on to always save your ass.
5. The best thing about these maneuvers is not auto failing on a 1. Since most save-or-dies are fortitude as well as poisons, again, Mind Over Body is the clear MVP for Swordsage.

oops i totally thought they were stances not manoeuvers.

maybe because im thinking about it from the PoV of taking a 2 or 3 level dip in swordsage, but not failing on a 1, even better saves, and slaving all saves to one useful attribute sounds like a good deal to me; even for giving up swift actions.

surely theres enough manoeuvers readied? at lvl 1 theres 4 and by lvl 20 theres 12, isn't that enough?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not if you rely on strikes for the vast majority of your offense like most swordsages... Boosts are also nice, swordsage gets more of them than any other adept. I guess at level 20 when you have 12 readied it's only eating 1/4 of your readied maneuvers. It's certainly a terrible idea at level 5, though.

 

[Particle_Man]

Swordsage with another ToB class is pretty much necessary for getting into the Master of Nine prestige class, but going "all out" with Swordsage ain't bad either.

Stone Dragon stuff only works if you are on the ground (not flying, mounted, etc.) and Stone Dragon stances often only work if you don't move. Something to watch out for.

There is a feat that gives you an extra readied maneuver (but take Adaptive Style first).

Shadow Hand is great for ninja type stuff.
Setting Sun is good for throwing people around, if that is how you roll.
Diamond Mind is good for saves, and other counters. Oh, and blindsense.
Desert Wind gives you speed and fire stuff (and a stance that gives you progressive fire resistance and eventually fire immunity!).
Tiger Claw gives you jumping stuff and 2WF goodness.

Of the three, if you are going all sneaky assassin ninja then Shadow Hand is your first point of call, then see what works for you. Maybe Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw with some Diamond Mind?

Oh, and despite the name, the prestige class Shadow Sun Ninja is not worth it, and might even kill your character.