D&D 5E Sword burst vs. Thunderclap.

[grendel111111]

These two cantrips seem very similar except that thunderclap gives off a loud sound to 100'.

An interesting difference though is that Thunderclap is range self (5 foot radius), but Sword burst is range 5'.

Is this deliberate or an intentional difference. One of my players wants to take Sword burst as a Sorcerer and taking distant spell and spell sniper resulting in the damage affecting everyone in 20' radius.
Is this over powered for a cantrip? Intentional, or over sight?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Okay, first of all, the Spell Sniper feat says: "When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled;" the sword burst cantrip requires the targets to make Dexterity saving throws, so Spell Sniper doesn't apply.

Second, the wording is usually deliberate. They are very different in specifics:

• thunderclap requires a Constitution saving throw while sword burst goes off of Dexterity
• thunderclap does thunder damage while sword burst does force damage
• thunderclap has a somatic component only, while sword burst is verbal

For example, sword burst is stopped by a silence spell, but thunderclap is unaffected in damage while the limitation on it ("can be heard 100 feet away") is nullified.

Other than that, I have no issues with the build. He's basically making a sorcerer to do a more effective cantrip as a "One Trick Pony;" since using this "One Trick" requires his sorcerer to be in the thick of the melee, it's got it's own limitations built right in.

 

[dmnqwk]

The Silence spell is a good indicator of how these spells really differ:

Inside the Silence bubble you can cast Thunderclap, but not Sword Burst.
Outside the bubble you can cast Sword Burst to affect creatures inside, but they are immune to the damage from a Thunderclap (Silence grants Immunity to Thunder damage).

When it comes to worrying about a cantrip's power level, unless it can beat Eldritch Blast I wouldn't worry too much. Eldritch blast, at 17th, can do 1d10+5 to 4 targets (or the same target four times) plus hit up to 600' with spell sniper, ignoring 3/4 cover, knocking back targets 10' per beam and it's supposedly balanced then I don't see how you could get close to creating a Cantrip that is near that power level.

 

[pukunui]

Just to reiterate: while you might technically be able to cast thunderclap within a zone of silence, it will have no effect because creatures within the zone are immune to thunder damage.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Just to reiterate: while you might technically be able to cast thunderclap within a zone of silence, it will have no effect because creatures within the zone are immune to thunder damage.

That's a great point -- I'd neglected to check the silence spell effect.

 

[pukunui]

That's a great point -- I'd neglected to check the silence spell effect.

Just for the record, [MENTION=6804204]dmnqwk[/MENTION] mentioned it first.

 

[Shiroiken]

Another thing to note is that Sword Burst is only on the Wizard spell list, while Thunderclap is on the Wizard, Bard, and Sorcerer lists.

 

[pukunui]

Another thing to note is that Sword Burst is only on the Wizard spell list ...

SCAG, pg 142: "These cantrips are on the sorcerer, warlock, and wizard spell lists."

 

[grendel111111]

Okay, first of all, the Spell Sniper feat says: "When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled;" the sword burst cantrip requires the targets to make Dexterity saving throws, so Spell Sniper doesn't apply.

Second, the wording is usually deliberate. They are very different in specifics:

• thunderclap requires a Constitution saving throw while sword burst goes off of Dexterity
• thunderclap does thunder damage while sword burst does force damage
• thunderclap has a somatic component only, while sword burst is verbal

For example, sword burst is stopped by a silence spell, but thunderclap is unaffected in damage while the limitation on it ("can be heard 100 feet away") is nullified.

Other than that, I have no issues with the build. He's basically making a sorcerer to do a more effective cantrip as a "One Trick Pony;" since using this "One Trick" requires his sorcerer to be in the thick of the melee, it's got it's own limitations built right in.

Thanks. The bit about the only on spells requiring an attack roll was the bit I missed. (I had written most of the other stuff out and deleted it because I thought I would be wasting every ones time.) He is building a Cleric/sorcerer and very much wants to be in the middle of combat. His other plan was to use the new cantrips in the SCAG to attack with bonus damage and then add his storm clerics bonus damage to the sword damage (so sword damage+ green flame blade damage + divine strike, which is 1d8(sword)+Str+2d8+2d8 and another 2d8 +Cha to another creature within 5'. at level 14
At character level 17 it will become sword +Str + 5d8 damage and 3d8+Cha to a near by creature.

 

[Shiroiken]

SCAG, pg 142: "These cantrips are on the sorcerer, warlock, and wizard spell lists."

Fine. Bard only has access to Thunderclap

(knew I should have double checked that...)