Swarm vs. Swarm

[Scharlata]

Hi!

This question arose yesterday IMC:

What about the damage a [diminutive] swarm can deal another [diminutive] swarm?

(A regular swarm of diminutive spiders attacked the party's warlock, who wanted to fight the spider swarm with an invocation of a swarm of diminutive bats.)

Thanx for your consideration!

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

What about it?

Nothing in the Swarm description states that they are immune to damage from a swarm.
The two swarms pile upon each other, some bats eating spiders a while the spiders bite the bats... whichever one runs out of HPs first gets 'killed'.

 

[Scharlata]

What about it?

Nothing in the Swarm description states that they are immune to damage from a swarm.
The two swarms pile upon each other, some bats eating spiders a while the spiders bite the bats... whichever one runs out of HPs first gets 'killed'.

Because I don't know if the damage dealt by swarms is "weapon" damage - against a diminutive swarm is immune. Is that only damage or a defined category of damage?

Thanx

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'd let 'im do it, just because the visual is cool ... bats > bugs. It's what bats DO, after all.

--fje

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Because I don't know if the damage dealt by swarms is "weapon" damage - against a diminutive swarm is immune. Is that only damage or a defined category of damage?

The PHB has a glossary entry for "damage" that isn't particularly helpful here, but the real question is: does it make any sense that a Swarm of X would be immune to damage from a Swarm of Y. (And the answer is: No, not really.) Swarms are immune to "weapon damage" because you can't hurt 1,000 itty-bitty critters by swinging one single sword through their mass. But 1,000 other itty-bitty critters should be able to inflict quite a bit of damage on them.

And here's something else I just thought of. The swarm subtype description in MM says: "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells." A swarm's attack is an effect that affects an area, so a case could be made that not only do swarms damage each other, they do so really well!

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

And here's something else I just thought of. The swarm subtype description in MM says: "A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells." A swarm's attack is an effect that affects an area, so a case could be made that not only do swarms damage each other, they do so really well!

That would have been my conclusion as well...

AR

 

[ForceUser]

I'd let 'im do it, just because the visual is cool ... bats > bugs. It's what bats DO, after all.

--fje

That is an exceedingly cool visual. I'd allow it.

 

[Scharlata]

That is an exceedingly cool visual. I'd allow it.

Hi @ll

Besides the "cool visual effects", maybe the solution lies within this quotes from the MM:

A swarm is a collection of Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creatures that acts as a single creature.

Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.

Conclusion: Swarms are creatures and therefore can be damaged by swarms. q.e.d.

Comments?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Conclusion: Swarms are creatures and therefore can be damaged by swarms. q.e.d.

Comments?

Well, only if the swarm attack does not deal weapon damage.

Now, DR reduces the 'damage from weapons and natural attacks'. The Swarm subtype makes reference to 'DR sufficient to reduce the swarm damage to 0', which implies that DR applies to the Swarm attack, which means that the swarm damage is 'damage from weapons or natural attacks'.

Now, if we assume that a swarm of bats is immune to both a longsword and a bear's claw attack as a consequence of its immunity to weapon damage, we know that immunity to weapon damage provides for immunity to the damage from weapons, and from natural attacks.

Since the DR evidence tells us that swarm damage is either damage from weapons or damage from natural attacks - both of which immunity to weapon damage protects against - we can see that immunity to weapon damage protects against swarm damage.

This conclusion is based on two assumptions:
1. DR applies to swarm damage.
2. Immunity to weapon damage protects against natural attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

It's not weapon damage, it's automatic damage. I see this sort of like "unnamed bonuses", except it's "unnamed damage". What is the damage type of a Warlock's Eldritch Blast?