D&D 5E Superiority Dice? How many and often?

[Aldarc]

There have been a number of suggestions for the hypothetical warlord to have superiority dice and maneuvers, much in the manner of the battle master. The commonly repeated rationale being akin to the analogy eldritch knight:wizard::battle master:warlord. In other words, the battle master represents a truncated version of the warlord class package within the fighter chassis. As such, the hypothetical warlord would likely expand the maneuvers and superiority dice options of the battle master, albeit in a manner more focused on support. I agree strongly with this basic idea. The difficulty, however, lies with implementation and trying to cross-translate that basic idea to the warlord. So I would like to focus this thread discussion on this one series of related issues regarding superiority dice and maneuvers for the warlord.

The Eldritch Knight gains only 4th level spells max. These spells work much like a wizard. You have cantrips, spell slots, spell levels, and then expended spells are regained following a long rest.

The Battle Master, however, has four superiority dice (max six) that are regained following a short or long rest. These superiority dice are expended when one performs a maneuver and typically are then added to the damage of the integrated roll. There are no "maneuver levels" nor are there "maneuver cantrips." The pool and power of superiority dice simply increases with level. The BM fighter has a set of "known maneuvers" (3 at 3rd level and then 9 at 15th level).

So if we try to effectively reverse-engineer the warlord out of the BM fighter, then a number of basic questions arise.

Maneuvers: Assuming that the list of maneuvers expands, how many maneuvers does a warlord "know" by 20th level? Or is it that the warlord does not "know" maneuvers, as per the BM fighter? (With a limited list of 'known spells' being more akin to the sorcerer, bard, or warlock.) If we view the warlord as the "martial wizard," does this mean that the warlord would instead 'prepare' maneuvers? And again, how many? (Prepared Total = Int + Warlord level?)

Superiority Dice: First, how should a warlord regain their superiority dice? Should it be per short rest, as the BM fighter (and warlock), or should it be per long rest, as per a wizard/cleric? This question has import on the next question: how many superiority dice should a starting and max level warlord have? How should this compare with the BM fighter? Should the warlord only be given enough superiority dice assuming they are refreshed by short/long rests? Or should the warlord be given enough superiority dice assuming that they are a resource only refreshed by exclusively long rests?

Misc. Maneuvers + Dice: With the BM fighter, Superiority Dice are typically expended to activate a maneuver. Should that always be the case? In other words, could there effectively be "maneuver cantrips" that the warlord could use 'at-will' without expending Superiority Dice that would not be construed as overpowered? Also, Superiority Dice are typically, but not always, incorporated into maneuvers by being added to the damage of the Dice role associated with the maneuver? Is that necessarily appropriate for Warlord maneuvers? Or should other mechanics be considered?

 

[mellored]

well... ek is 1/3 caster. so if we assume bm is 1/3 warlord.
so 4 dice * 3 as a main class * 3 rests = 36 dice per day.
5*3*3=45
6*3*3=54
given that you typically only have 20 or so rounds of combat a day.
going from 1-3 dice per turn would effectivly give 20/40/60 per day.

though looking at the playtest fighter, it got 1d6 to 5d6 dice per turn.

 

[Aldarc]

well... ek is 1/3 caster. so if we assume bm is 1/3 warlord.
so 4 dice * 3 as a main class * 3 rests = 36 dice per day.
5*3*3=45
6*3*3=54
given that you typically only have 20 or so rounds of combat a day.
going from 1-3 dice per turn would effectivly give 20/40/60 per day.

though looking at the playtest fighter, it got 1d6 to 5d6 dice per turn.

So what would you suggest? How would you see a warlord's superiority dice functioning?

 

[mellored]

level 1: 1d4
level 5: 2d6
level 8: 2d8
level 11: 3d8
level 14: 3d10
level 17: 4d12

or

level 1: 1d4
level 5: 2d6
level 11: 2d8
level 14: 2d10
level 17: 3d12

depends on what else they get.

 

[Aldarc]

level 1: 1d4
level 5: 2d6
level 8: 2d8
level 11: 3d8
level 14: 3d10
level 17: 4d12

or

level 1: 1d4
level 5: 2d6
level 11: 2d8
level 14: 2d10
level 17: 3d12

depends on what else they get.

You laugh, but for something so fundamental to the hypothetical warlord model that people seem to be working with, there is minimal discussion on how the warlord's superiority dice would be reverse engineered out of the BM fighter or how that mechanic would translate to the warlord.

 

[jodyjohnson]

I think if things settle on the Battle Master/'maneuver' paradigm then we'll so more effort on the precise balance.

It this time the Warlock is probably the best comparator since Superiority Dice reset on a short rest.

 

[Aldarc]

I think if things settle on the Battle Master/'maneuver' paradigm then we'll so more effort on the precise balance.

It this time the Warlock is probably the best comparator since Superiority Dice reset on a short rest.

Of course, but if the Battle Master becomes analogous to the Warlock, then the issue still remains. How does one reverse-engineer the Warlord out of the Battle Master?

 

[mellored]

Here's the playtest.
http://zaffudo.com/012813 DnD Next Playtest Packet/

In case that helps.

 

[jodyjohnson]

1) Superiority Dice?
Personally, I think it is a strong starting point – we have a working class to build from and they are not generally considered under or over powered.

2) How many and often?
As a starting point I think my general answer would be slightly more if they refresh on a short rest, or much more if they refresh on a long rest. But I think the long rest refresh would not suit the flavor of a martial class.

3) Assuming that the list of maneuvers expands, how many maneuvers does a warlord "know" by 20th level?
The current maneuver list has a majority that add to the user’s attacks. The flavor of a warlord would have them primarily add to the targets ability. I think the Warlord could have less or more maneuver’s known than the Battle Master, however the majority should effect other friendly targets. A small number can directly increase the Warlord’s attacks.

4) Or is it that the warlord does not "know" maneuvers, as per the BM fighter?
I think it would be a failure as a martial class if the Warlord followed a caster mechanic too closely.

5) If we view the warlord as the "martial wizard," does this mean that the warlord would instead 'prepare' maneuvers?
This implies that they could know and ‘not know’ a maneuver. My feeling is ‘no’, they should not prepare maneuvers.

6) And again, how many? (Prepared Total = Int + Warlord level?)
Way to high. I don’t think we need Wizard levels of complexity here. It is mostly likely the Warlord would rely upon a small subset of Maneuvers anyway.

7) First, how should a warlord regain their superiority dice?
I think the Short rest refresh would be preferred. At will, would be perhaps too good (especially with regard to HP recovery or buffing).

8) Should it be per short rest, as the BM fighter (and warlock), or should it be per long rest, as per a wizard/cleric?
For myself, short rest. Then we can keep the numbers lower and as the other martial classes favor short rests it would be more consistent in a low-magic or caster-less campaign.

9) How many superiority dice should a starting and max level warlord have?
I think as a core feature of the Warlord they should start slightly earlier, however if the core feature is an aura and Hit Point recovery (healing) than it can come at 3rd. I wouldn’t start much later. However if they start too early it becomes a ‘dip’ class.

10) How should this compare with the BM fighter?
If the combat ability is lower than a Fighter then better Combat Superiority is warranted. If the Warlord’s combat ability is commensurate with a fighter then they should be more even but with a different focus.

11) Should the warlord only be given enough superiority dice assuming they are refreshed by short/long rests?
Yes, they should be given enough to last for a short rest. My preference is that they recover their die in certain situations (where they are wasted). Making them reliable.

12) Or should the warlord be given enough superiority dice assuming that they are a resource only refreshed by exclusively long rests?
My preference would be to not go down the long rest road as Maneuvers are not comparable to spells. I would give the Warlord the ability to increase the effectiveness of certain Maneuvers however – probably as subclass features.

13) With the BM fighter, Superiority Dice are typically expended to activate a maneuver. Should that always be the case?
If the ability grants an attack better than a standard at-will attack it should expend a die. However, if the ability merely grants a standard attack in place of a standard attack that might be fine (really this seems to be the lynchpin ability of the “lazylord”). However, I could see more opposition to the “lazylord” as an adventuring archetype.

14) In other words, could there effectively be "maneuver cantrips" that the warlord could use 'at-will' without expending Superiority Dice that would not be construed as overpowered?
Yes, there could be – probably called something else. However, as tight as the action economy is, I think this would be the weakest link for powergaming the class abilities and require weakening the number of actions/attacks the Warlord was allowed. Which would also make the class less appealing for the other styles.

15) Also, Superiority Dice are typically, but not always, incorporated into maneuvers by being added to the damage of the Dice role associated with the maneuver?
Not a question but ‘yes’ that statement is true.

16) Is that necessarily appropriate for Warlord maneuvers? Or should other mechanics be considered?
As a ‘balanced’ starting point I think that would best incorporate the buffing aspect. That wouldn’t exclude other options. As there is no WotC Warlord class I think the houseruled version have a wide-open design space constrained by the expectation of Warlord fans.

17) So what would you suggest? How would you see a warlord's superiority dice functioning?
Specifically, I lean more towards a strong melee combatant with Superiority Dice intentionally focused towards enabling others (a strong nod towards the buffing Battle Master). However it needs to have the gaps filled with 1) actual healing/hit point recovery, 2) some ability to bring back those at ‘0’ or ‘dead’, 3) enough dice to approximate a ‘lazy lord’ build.

18) Of course, but if the Battle Master becomes analogous to the Warlock, then the issue still remains. How does one reverse-engineer the Warlord out of the Battle Master?
I said ‘comparator’ specifically to not imply that I was trying the reverse engineer the Warlord out of the Warlock. I’d compare them in the final form for power level. Honestly, I find the ‘reverse-engineer’ terms inappropriate due to the amount of art required in a design where the abilities form a complex equation based on a somewhat nebulous concept (a fighter/or non-fighter that helps other people fight).

 

[mellored]

5) If we view the warlord as the "martial wizard," does this mean that the warlord would instead 'prepare' maneuvers?
This implies that they could know and ‘not know’ a maneuver. My feeling is ‘no’, they should not prepare maneuvers.

There's some ideas that you could prepare your maneuvers by training with allies.

i.e. you take a short rest, going over your playbook with your allies. You can then use X maneuver with your allies.

7) First, how should a warlord regain their superiority dice?
I think the Short rest refresh would be preferred. At will, would be perhaps too good (especially with regard to HP recovery or buffing).

At-will buffing is fine, assuming it only last 1 turn or 1 attack. Compared to bless which takes 1 action and last 10 rounds and all attacks.

At-will recovery would be bad. Though there are ways to limit it without limiting the dice, like exhaustion, HD, or simply saying 1/short rest like some warlock invocations do.

Also, at-will is more different. So i favor that.

8) Should it be per short rest, as the BM fighter (and warlock), or should it be per long rest, as per a wizard/cleric?
For myself, short rest. Then we can keep the numbers lower and as the other martial classes favor short rests it would be more consistent in a low-magic or caster-less campaign.

Rogues and barbarians don't have any short rest abilities.