Super Speed Attack!

[Brainznolmz]

I have always looked for ways to exploit stacking effects on characters, through magic items, feats and spells, et cetera.. D&D 3.5 is pretty good about stating specifically when two things are cumulative or not, and I believe for the most part this does a good job at keeping balanced.

However I had the idea of using a level 20 good B.a.B (+20/+15/+10/+5) and see how far I could take this to stack as many attack rolls into a full round action. Basically, I took a skeleton of a level 20 fighter and threw some feats and magic items her way and saw how many worked without diminishing returns. This is what I ended up with.

+20/+15/+10/+5 "Any modifiers on attack rolls apply to all these attacks normally" (Phb. 22)
Feats:

Exotic weapon prof: Bastard Sword.......................................... Bastard Sword w/o penalty​

Two-weapon fighting............................................................. -4/-4 (main hand/OH)
Two-weapon defense (for giggles)...........................................+1 AC
Imp. Two-weapon fighting......................................................2nd Off-hand attack (-5)
Great. Two-weapon fighting....................................................3rd Off-hand attack (-10)
Weapon Focus (this and all similar apply to Bastard Sword)...........+1 atk
Weapon Specialization...........................................................+2 dmg
Great. Weapon Focus.............................................................+1 atk (now +2)
Great. Weapon Specialization...................................................+2 dmg (now +4)
Improved Crit........................................................................double crit range (17-20/x2)​

These feats bring a fighter's full round attack roll to: 18/18/13/8/13/13/8/3/8/8/3/3/-2/-7
Magic Items:

Speed on both Bastard Swords NOTE: Speed DOES NOT stack with similar effects, but similar effects include stuff like Haste spells, NOT the Imp. and Great. Two-weapon fighting feats.
Belt of Giants Strength (+6)
Gloves of Dex. (+6) (Fulfills some feat prereqs)
Strongarm Bracers, allows fighter to DUEL WIELD LARGE SIZED BASTARD SWORDS. THIS IS SO AWESOME IT NEEDS TO BE IN CAPS.​

That's it! No more magic items are needed to achieve a Super Speed Attack!

Assuming that the fighters lvl 1 Str was rolled a 15, spent all 5 natural ability increases on Str, and has the Belt equipped, this raises the final Str score to 26 (+7)

This raises the final full round attack to:
25/25/25/25/20/15/20/20/20/20/15/10/15/15/15/15/10/5/10/10/10/10/5/0

That is 24 d20 rolls, each with the potential to do 2d8+11 dmg

Please, if I have overlooked anything, please comment and let me know. This did not take long to compile so I might have made a mistake, and feel free to point any out. If anyone has any suggestions to further the Super Attack that would be awesome.

Walk of shame. This doesn't work. I explain my mistake on page 3 of this thread. Thanks for the clarification everyone!

 

[Dozen]

25 Attack Bonus at Level 20? Eh... kind of unimpressed, here, in spite of how awesome you present it to be. I had squishies 6 levels prior with double the AC without wasting half my feats on it. There aren't any technical mistakes, no(at least not before the feat list, the part after I doubt), but assuming this build survived 20 levels, what then? How is he supposed to compete? He's cripplingly overspecced for melee, and not even good at it. He could be killed by a 20th level... anything else, really. And they don't need to be minmaxed, either. The same idea with a Monk of all things would actually be more viable. They at least have decent enough saving throws and skill selection to survive pre-epic. He needs some sort of viable defense from ranged attacks, debuffs to his Attack Bonus and spells to have a chance at all, and you can't expect the party spellcaster to babysit you all day.

 

[Dandu]

Here you go.

 

[Empirate]

If you don't want to go into theoretical optimization territory, you might want to have a look at this guy called Jack B. Quick. You don't do a whole lot of attacking yourself, on your own turn - but if anybody is foolish enough to attack you, he's getting hit up to six times in return. Fun little build. Especially for a build using only 20 Fighter levels, like yours does.

 

[delericho]

I'm sorry, but I'm obviously missing something: by my count you get 8 attacks, not 24.

Four as standard for your BAB, a further three with the off-hand weapon, plus one for the speed on your bastard sword(s). Having speed on two weapons gives one extra attack, because it doesn't stack with haste or similar effects, and because it is a similar effect - it doesn't stack with itself.

Where do you think the other 16 attacks are coming from?

Oh, and I make your (adjusted) progression: +25/+25/+25/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10.

Incidentally, you can potentially increase this by playing a race with a bite attack, or other natural weapons.

 

[delericho]

If you don't want to go into theoretical optimization territory, you might want to have a look at this guy called Jack B. Quick. You don't do a whole lot of attacking yourself, on your own turn - but if anybody is foolish enough to attack you, he's getting hit up to six times in return. Fun little build. Especially for a build using only 20 Fighter levels, like yours does.

I'm reasonably sure that doesn't work. There are three feats there that grant an AoO when someone attacks you, but that's redundant - each opportunity only grants one attack. There's no point in having Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Throw.

(Curiously, the SRD doesn't match my PHB, in which Combat Reflexes says you can make multiple AoOs in the round, but no more than one per target. The SRD does allow multiple AoOs on a single target, but only one per opportunity.)

So, an incoming attack could potentially be met with three counter-attacks - sword & axe (Double Hit), then a potential trip if both hit (High Sword Low Axe), and then possibly sword again if the trip works (Improved Trip).

I suppose that if the target then were to stand up from prone, that would provoke another AoO, giving another sword & axe combo (though that depends on the reading of Combat Reflexes). But since the AoO occurs before the action that triggers it, it can't trip the opponent again, nor can it prevent him from standing.

 

[Empirate]

Not my build btw, but I'm reasonably sure that Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are considered to generate two separate 'opportunities' (for the purpose of making an AoO) at the same time. Similarly, if the opponent misses, Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Throw both kick in and generate one regular attack of opportunity from Robilar's (make that two strikes plus potential trip plus potential-potential followup with Double Hit, High Sword Low Axe, and Improved Trip), and one trip attempt made as an AoO from Defensive Throw. At least, that's how I understand it.

I agree it's far from intuitive, but by RAW I'm finding no serious flaw. The FAQ is silent, and I know of no other rulings on this matter. If you fluff it the right way, you could say the following: "Combining Karmic Strike/Defensive Throw with Robilar's Gambit is a serious investment into a risky, rarely taught technique. You learn how to invite disaster but be all but assured of devastating retaliation. While your opponent is busy gloating about the easy hit he got in, you strike with lightning swiftness, using the adrenaline rush from the wound you just took. You're using all weapons at your disposal to take him down at all costs, ignoring the pain for the moment."

Remember that a melee attack that "hits" may be envisioned as a lot of scratches or bruises from a quick exchange of multiple blows; a one-two-three combination, the first of which brings the shield down, the second glances off the helmet, and the third bites into the opponent's shoulder; or a quick double slash across one cheek. Similarly, three hits in rapid succession could be described as a clean stab, followed by a twisting of the weapon in the wound, followed by ripping the weapon out with a gush of blood. Long as it's RAW, you can almost always come up with a decent description of what just happened.

 

[delericho]

Not my build btw, but I'm reasonably sure that Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit are considered to generate two separate 'opportunities' (for the purpose of making an AoO) at the same time.

Considered by whom? I'm not aware of any other precedent in the rules where a combatant taking a single action generates two AoOs from the same opponent. In fact, the one instance the the rules address where it might (a combatant moving out of one threatened square into another and then moving out of that square) is specifically noted as generating only a single opportunity. And, of course, the general pattern in the rules is that effects that do the same thing don't stack.

Tl;dr version: I would need to see specific rules text supporting that option before I would consider it valid.

If you fluff it the right way...

Remember that a melee attack that "hits" may be envisioned as...

FWIW, I have no disagreement with any of this.

 

[Empirate]

Considered by the build's creator, Caelic.

I can imagine the argument to be something like this: attacking a guy who uses Robilar's creates an opportunity for that guy. Hitting a guy who uses Karmic Strike creates an opportunity for that guy. Missing a guy who uses Defensive Throw lets that guy make a free trip attempt which uses up an attack of opportunity for him. These opportunities might be created by the same actions, but they stem from different sources, they're not the same, and they can be taken one after the other, and before resolving the attack that caused them. So whenever you attack that guy, you're basically automatically creating two different opportunities for him (he's well trained enough to exploit two spots you left open at once).

On the stacking thing: stacking rules are for numerical bonuses/penalties only, and they don't apply here.

I can see DMs being very leery of this rules interpretation, and demanding positive rules support before allowing Robilar's, Karmic Strike and Defensive Throw to work together as outlined here - but that would be as much of a houserule as allowing them without that positive rules support. It's a bit of a grey area IMO. I'd allow this guy's schtick to work, btw, if only for game balance reasons.

 

[delericho]

Considered by the build's creator, Caelic.

Fair enough.

On the stacking thing: stacking rules are for numerical bonuses/penalties only, and they don't apply here.

You're right - this was a poorly chosen word on my part. I should have said "aren't cumulative". My point remains, though - see the speed weapons and haste spells, or the Improved Critical feat and keen weapons.

I can see DMs being very leery of this rules interpretation, and demanding positive rules support before allowing Robilar's, Karmic Strike and Defensive Throw to work together as outlined here - but that would be as much of a houserule as allowing them without that positive rules support.

But here's where I nitpick you on terminology: either way that would be a ruling, not a house rule. Because here the DM is adjudicating a perceived ambiguity in the RAW, rather than explicitly overruling it.

I'd allow this guy's schtick to work, btw, if only for game balance reasons.

Ah, now here you've definitely got something, because as has been discussed several times on these boards recently, 3.5e very heavily favours the casters over the non-casters, such that you practically require a... um... questionable build just to remain competitive.

My impulse with ambiguities is always to "never give them an inch", partly due to a bad experience with a player who would pose something like that, wait for me to accede, and then spring up with "and if you allow that, then presumably you have no problems with this...!" But, of course, I can readily see why YMMV.