uzagi_akimbo
First Post
In our most current campaign, Summon Undead III and IV (as per PGtF ) have started to cause a more or less pronounced combat imbalance.
This is the situation - the group is "morally flexible" and around 8th level. The group includes a ( well played and exceedingly funny) dedicated necromantic sorcerer (reading this guy takes barely anything but necromancy spells ), with average equipment. He has Summon Undead III and IV as regulars in his spell selection. He does have "Spell Focus - Conjuration" and "Augmented Summoning". The player behind him is (luckily) a dedicated role-player, not an abusive power monger, which takes the edge of the dominance, as he introduces some funny, not necessarily efficient ways to run his "servants".
The problem that arises is, that Summon Undead III allows the summoning of a "huge skeleton" as the creature of choice. That means two of them, if using Summon Undead IV. None of the standard "huge" skeletons in the MM has a challenge rating of less than CR 6, and even when converting another huge humanoid creature into a skeleton the CR never drops below CR 6. This means cloud giant skeletons with 2 claw attacks of 1d8+12 as a +18 melee attack and 17D12 for HP. That is, before augmented summoning takes effect - which luckily adds only to Str with undead . But then, they have 15' reach.
Even a huge megaraptor skeleton has talons +9 (2d6+5) (+ claws + bite in its full attack routine) with 10' reach.
In effect, these huge heaps of bones (who have around 80 HP apiece as a raptor, 110 as a cloud giant skeleton ) totally dominate any ground based combat, and very easily outdamage the party's tank(s) - who is happy to leave the opposition sidekicks to be mashed by the summoned undead and focuses at neutralizing enemy leadership, fast.
Now in a simple spell vs. spell comparison, summon monster III (equal level, equal prerequisites, same classes ) yields only a fiendish huge centipede or celestial bison, fiendish dire bat or fiendish crocodile all at around CR 2 or 3, and even the huge fiendish centipede, who at least has some reach and decent armour plus comparable immunities has only about half the HP (6D12 = 39 HP, a weaker attack (melee +5), weaker damage ) and much weaker fighting ability overall - like say no DR, elemental immunity etc etc...
The same goes for the large skeleton (available with Summon Undead II ) which as a troll skeleton (the weakest of those listed in the MM ) is already a nasty CR 3 monster which would rip through a 3rd or 4th level group with ease, and you get two of those with Summon Undead III or four with Summon Undead IV..... Much superior to the comparable Summon Monster alternatives in almost every way. The imbalance is similar, although less pronounced for the zombies summonable, because those lag one size category behind, until you get to Summon Undead IV, and contemplate a huge zombie, which basically is a huge creature with twice the number of D12 HD as the original beastie/humanoid.... hmmm like a 24HD12 megaraptor.... that is around 160 HP....
As for the disadvantages like having your "loyal servants" taken over by enemy clerics - opposition clerics (if any are faced, the campaign actually discourages this, thematically ) usually can take over one or more of the summoned undead, but this can be quickly resolved when the summoner moves out of spell range, thereby ending the spell. It is also very hard to do with zombies, who simply have an enormous number of HD (like around 24D12 for a huge megaraptor zombie - and that is among the wimpiest huge creatures available for zombification... ), rendering takeover attempts moot simply by having excess HD. Very few of the clerics the group fights are "undead destroyers" using spells with light or sunlight componets, too , and as a dedicated sorcerer, the necromancer (with good CHA ) can simply swamp the opposition even if they use a summon undead XYZ of their own.
Now, the player is approaching ninth level and is eyeing the Extend Spell metamagic feat.....meaning that his summoned aid will last for around 18+ rounds...
Am I missing something here or has WotC made this a horribly overpowered spell ? I mean in reverse, used by an equally leveled (and feat-using ) caster, this could get horribly dangerous for a group of PCs. Just imagine fighting a huge cloud giant skeleton (110 HP, 2x claws for 1d8+12 at +18 attack, 15' reach with 14 rounds duration) summoned by that nasty 7th level cleric your fifth level group is fighting.... Or two of those for 7 rounds.... A cleric/caster which might not even become visible....
This is the situation - the group is "morally flexible" and around 8th level. The group includes a ( well played and exceedingly funny) dedicated necromantic sorcerer (reading this guy takes barely anything but necromancy spells ), with average equipment. He has Summon Undead III and IV as regulars in his spell selection. He does have "Spell Focus - Conjuration" and "Augmented Summoning". The player behind him is (luckily) a dedicated role-player, not an abusive power monger, which takes the edge of the dominance, as he introduces some funny, not necessarily efficient ways to run his "servants".
The problem that arises is, that Summon Undead III allows the summoning of a "huge skeleton" as the creature of choice. That means two of them, if using Summon Undead IV. None of the standard "huge" skeletons in the MM has a challenge rating of less than CR 6, and even when converting another huge humanoid creature into a skeleton the CR never drops below CR 6. This means cloud giant skeletons with 2 claw attacks of 1d8+12 as a +18 melee attack and 17D12 for HP. That is, before augmented summoning takes effect - which luckily adds only to Str with undead . But then, they have 15' reach.
Even a huge megaraptor skeleton has talons +9 (2d6+5) (+ claws + bite in its full attack routine) with 10' reach.
In effect, these huge heaps of bones (who have around 80 HP apiece as a raptor, 110 as a cloud giant skeleton ) totally dominate any ground based combat, and very easily outdamage the party's tank(s) - who is happy to leave the opposition sidekicks to be mashed by the summoned undead and focuses at neutralizing enemy leadership, fast.
Now in a simple spell vs. spell comparison, summon monster III (equal level, equal prerequisites, same classes ) yields only a fiendish huge centipede or celestial bison, fiendish dire bat or fiendish crocodile all at around CR 2 or 3, and even the huge fiendish centipede, who at least has some reach and decent armour plus comparable immunities has only about half the HP (6D12 = 39 HP, a weaker attack (melee +5), weaker damage ) and much weaker fighting ability overall - like say no DR, elemental immunity etc etc...
The same goes for the large skeleton (available with Summon Undead II ) which as a troll skeleton (the weakest of those listed in the MM ) is already a nasty CR 3 monster which would rip through a 3rd or 4th level group with ease, and you get two of those with Summon Undead III or four with Summon Undead IV..... Much superior to the comparable Summon Monster alternatives in almost every way. The imbalance is similar, although less pronounced for the zombies summonable, because those lag one size category behind, until you get to Summon Undead IV, and contemplate a huge zombie, which basically is a huge creature with twice the number of D12 HD as the original beastie/humanoid.... hmmm like a 24HD12 megaraptor.... that is around 160 HP....
As for the disadvantages like having your "loyal servants" taken over by enemy clerics - opposition clerics (if any are faced, the campaign actually discourages this, thematically ) usually can take over one or more of the summoned undead, but this can be quickly resolved when the summoner moves out of spell range, thereby ending the spell. It is also very hard to do with zombies, who simply have an enormous number of HD (like around 24D12 for a huge megaraptor zombie - and that is among the wimpiest huge creatures available for zombification... ), rendering takeover attempts moot simply by having excess HD. Very few of the clerics the group fights are "undead destroyers" using spells with light or sunlight componets, too , and as a dedicated sorcerer, the necromancer (with good CHA ) can simply swamp the opposition even if they use a summon undead XYZ of their own.
Now, the player is approaching ninth level and is eyeing the Extend Spell metamagic feat.....meaning that his summoned aid will last for around 18+ rounds...
Am I missing something here or has WotC made this a horribly overpowered spell ? I mean in reverse, used by an equally leveled (and feat-using ) caster, this could get horribly dangerous for a group of PCs. Just imagine fighting a huge cloud giant skeleton (110 HP, 2x claws for 1d8+12 at +18 attack, 15' reach with 14 rounds duration) summoned by that nasty 7th level cleric your fifth level group is fighting.... Or two of those for 7 rounds.... A cleric/caster which might not even become visible....
Last edited:
