Summon Monster alignments

[Quasqueton]

So the PCs were up against a goblin cleric with Protection from Law up. The PC mage summoned a celestial badger to help in the fight. I (the DM) said the badger could not touch the goblin cleric because it is a summoned creature.

After the battle, we were all discussing it, and it was mentioned that a Chaotic summoned creature would not be stopped by the PfL. This I knew. But then the mage Player said that the celestial badger was Chaotic Good. Huh?

According to summon monster, summoning a celestial badger is a CG spell. When I ruled the celestial badger could not touch the goblin cleric, I was thinking the badger was just an animal with the celestial template added, which would make it NG.

So, what about being celestial changes a badger's alignment from Neutral (on the L/C axis) to Chaotic?

And another thing about SM. . .

The PCs have found a monster that lives in a lake. They discussed ways of taking it on, and one concept was to have the PC mage summon an octopus. Unfortunately, the only option in the book is to summon a fiendish octopus. Are there no celestial octopi?

Then we looked down the list of summonable monsters, and found the list really wonky. For instance, SMIII gives a LG cleric only 2 monsters plus a small elemental (and one of those two monsters is a *bison*). But a CE cleric has 7 options plus the elemental.

Is there a reason why the SM list is as it is? Is there a game balance reason why a CG cleric should not summon a raven? Why do the celestial/fiendish animals have Lawful/Chaotic alignments?

Quasqueton

 

[MerakSpielman]

I agree that the Summon Monster lists need to be much more extensive, with the option to summon anything on the list as Celestial or Fiendish, according to the caster's alignment.

 

[shilsen]

I agree that the Summon Monster lists need to be much more extensive, with the option to summon anything on the list as Celestial or Fiendish, according to the caster's alignment.

That's the way I do it IMC.

 

[dcollins]

According to summon monster, summoning a celestial badger is a CG spell. When I ruled the celestial badger could not touch the goblin cleric, I was thinking the badger was just an animal with the celestial template added, which would make it NG.

Not exactly. The Celestial template changes it to "Alignment: Always good (any)", so in theory, a celestial creature could be any of LG, NG, or CG. It just happens that the Summon Monster spell knows how to summon a monster of one specific alignment, and for badgers, it's CG.

Apparently a lot of people House-Rule Summon Monster to open it up to an anything-goes template/alignment mix-and-match. If you do that, just remember that more options always equals more power in a spell. Consider the ultimate extension where one could pick any combination of hit dice, abilities, alignment, and templates (or why 3.5 got in the habit of stripping out multi-uses for spells).

 

[Li Shenron]

I think you can easily make a celestial, fiendish, anarchic or axiomatic version of each base animals in SM so that the caster has slightly more versatility. In the case of animals, I don't think it is too powerful (would be different if you allowed any creature with appropriate CR), and it requires some extra work from the player to write down the creature.

 

[Pinotage]

Am I reading this correctly in that the alignment listed beside a creature in SM must match the alignment of the caster? I always thought the alignment was only listed for purposes of determining what the spell was. So a CG caster could summong a NE creature from the list, but then the spell would be (evil). Am I wrong?

Pinotage

 

[Li Shenron]

Am I reading this correctly in that the alignment listed beside a creature in SM must match the alignment of the caster? I always thought the alignment was only listed for purposes of determining what the spell was. So a CG caster could summong a NE creature from the list, but then the spell would be (evil). Am I wrong?

If you summon a NE creature, the spell is Evil, if you summon a CG, the spell has Chaos and Good descriptor and so on...

This only gives problems for divine casters. They just can't summon a monster if one of the alignment types is opposite to the caster's alignment (or her deity's alignment).

Arcane casters can also summon monsters of opposite alignment, although they may choose not to.

 

[Quasqueton]

Only clerics have a defined problem with the summon alignments. A cleric cannot summon a monster of an opposed alignment (his or his deity's). A CG cleric cannot summon a Lawful or Evil creature.

Quasqueton

 

[Pinotage]

Ah, OK, thanks! Seems I wasn't completely wrong!

Thanks!

Pinotage

 

[Li Shenron]

And to clarify, I'm pretty sure the cleric just CAN'T cast the spell. It's not that she can try and see if it works, or that the spell fails (wasting the slot), or even that she can summon it but faces the wrath of her deity. The "opposite" monsters are just NOT on the list of summonable creatures.