Suggestions on Barbarian/Sorc going to Dragon Disciple

[bret]

I'm considering taking a Barbarian / Sorcerer with high Con and working it towards Dragon Disciple. I'm looking for anyone with practical experience with this combinations to give me pointers.

From what I see, the Dragon Disciple is mostly about a fighter with a few spells that they can cast all day. No caster progression, so it is easy to dispel their effects and they only tend to get low level spells.

The campaign is going to be based on sea faring in the Forgotten Realms. Characters will be started at 3rd level, with either 26 or 30 point buy.

Since it is a sea faring campaign, not may people will be wearing heavy armour. It also means I have to reserve a few skill points for 'job skills', and maybe a feat just to keep up.

My current thoughts are to take a Wild Elf from the Moonshae Isles. Take Barb 2 / Sorc 1, Power Attack feat, True Strike and Endure Elements as spells. I've got a couple of different designs, but none I'm quite happy with yet.


Anyone got some experience or practical advice for me?

 

[Archer]

I'm doing that character right now. 2 barb/2 fig/1 rng/1 sor/3 rage. I want to get up to 4th level spells before I go DD.

I won't be large until 18th level but I'll have 10d6 fireballs and powerful fire walls. I can't find any really good 4th level damage spells. 20d4 is about as good as it gets (character level 14). The DC on those spells are really high (add class level to DC). Rage mage uses character level +2 as caster level but doesn't get many spells per day. The DD double the number of spells per day.

The longer you wait to go DD the more powerful you are but the less levels you have to play as the DD. You have to decide when the right time is.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I haven't actually played the class but I have played a number of low level fighter/wizard type characters. I think your plan and analysis of the class is pretty sound. However, I would suggest that you reconsider your spell selections. The Shield spell is a must for any fighter/mage type. Especially if it's an aquatic campaign where light armor will be the general rule. Get yourself a wand of mage armor and when you have an opportunity to prepare for fights, you'll be the only one whose armor class looks as good as it would on land.

If your DM runs shield strictly from the PH and errata (grants actual cover and thus negates AoOs), you'll find that it's a good substitute for the improved disarm and sunder feats.

 

[bret]

Thanks for the feedback.


I've never heard of a Rage Mage, Archer. What book is that from? Getting to cast spells as character level would be a huge advantage.

Elder-Basilisk, there are a couple of reasons I didn't take Shield at first level.

I plan on fighting in armor. The shield spell has a somantic component, so it would suffer Arcane Failure. With the short duration, I didn't think it was worth it.

The other reason is I thought that I would see how common the GM made Magic Missles. If they don't come up a lot, I can get most of the advantage of shield from firing from partial cover.

The reason for Endure Elements is the very long duration and it is enough protection to avoid most environmental damage. It is only a slight aid against elemental attacks, but I think it should work really well against hypothermia and such. Cast it at the beginning of the day, then put your armour one.

The reason for True Strike / Power Attack should be obvious. Make the first strike hit and hit hard.


It does bring up the whole question of what the spell selection for this character should be.

Very tenative plans would be (by caster level):

Sorc 1
0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestigitation, Mage Hand
1: True Strike, Endure Elements

Sorc 2
0: Mending

Sorc 3
1: Shield

Sorc 4
0: Light
2: Alter Self

Not sure I would take the character beyond this in spellcasting. If I did, here is probably what I would go for.

Sorc 5
1: Lesser Acid Orb (mostly to finish off regenerating creatures)
2: Bull's Strength

Sorc 6
0: Resistance
3: Water Breathing.


The Mage Hand and Mending spells are to help him do carpentry work on the boat. Should at very least give a circumstance bonus I figure.

Alter Self is so I could grow gills or wings when needed.

Water Breathing is so I could bring others underwater with me.


I figure that the character would mix in Barbarian levels when the hit points started drifting too low to be an effective fighter. I would most likely have him wear armor his whole career, which makes taking 3 levels of the Spellblade PrC very tempting. Main disadvantage would be 'wasting' a feat on Heavy Armour proficiency.

For character reasons, I would probably eventually take the Eschew Materials feat. If he went Dragon Disciple at 5th or 6th level, probably take it then explaining how I learned how to cast spells like a Dragon.


Any additional feedback welcome.

 

[Crothian]

Rage Mage is from a Dragon Magazine.

 

[bret]

Anyone else have any useful suggestions on this character?

 

[gfunk]

I play a Fig 4/Sor 1/DD 3 in RtToEE campaign. I've found that the use of the feat chain Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown is a killer combination after you gain Enlargement (DD 5). First, you inflict very high damage guaranteeing a Knockdown and since you have +4 size modifier to tripping it can work wonders against foes.

Alternatively, if you specialize in the spiked chain, you can use a Huge one to get 20 ft reach.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Shield

I've found spell failure to be endurable up to 20% or so. (Although 10% is much better than 20).

A mithril chain shirt is well within reach of a 3rd level character and gives +4 AC for 10% spell failure. With Shield (which will work 90% of the time) a large shield, and a 14 dex, you'd be looking at AC 25 which is pretty hard for most foes to hit up to around CR 5.

It's certainly possible to make a barbarian sorceror who doesn't use the Shield spell, but in my experience, it's just about the most effective 1st level spell available. (Get a wand if you end up not taking it).

From your comments about firing from partial cover, it sounds like you're planning an archer type character (that wouldn't seem to take advantage of the Dragon Disciples' stat increases but it's certainly a functional role). In that case, the cover would not only give you most of the benefits of the shield spell, but would largely negate its usefulness (Shield gives a cover bonus so the two types of cover don't stack).

On the other hand, you also commented on the true-strike+power attack combo which is only usable in melee. In that situation, Shield often proves invaluable.

 

[Darklone]

If your DM runs shield strictly from the PH and errata (grants actual cover and thus negates AoOs), you'll find that it's a good substitute for the improved disarm and sunder feats.

This starts again? There ARE PHBs that tell that shield spells don't negate AoOs. As well as errata and Sage advice and heck who else all say: It does NOT negate AoOs. If you use this, it's a houserule.

As for that char... Give him two levels of barbarian, then stick to sorcerer. Will keep him alive some time and he will be good enough as spellcaster. Played a wildelf too similar to that one. Two levels of rogue are rather useful too, but wastes your spellcasting.

As for fighting: Don't take more than two levels barbarian or perhaps one level barbarian, one level ranger. Gives you enough hitpoints to survive fighting till lvl6... then your spells will be good enough to help out (mirror image, blur)

I like your spell selection. Magic Missile sucks. Think about mage armour though, no spell failure and long duration. That wand of shield is a good idea... depends on the DM though.

Endure Elements: Hmm. I like it. But think about taking at least one damaging spell instead of shield at sor3. Magic Missile sucks, but there are sooo many others... (I love Flame bolt from Rituals&Relics)

 

[bret]

Re: Shield

I've found spell failure to be endurable up to 20% or so. (Although 10% is much better than 20).

A mithril chain shirt is well within reach of a 3rd level character and gives +4 AC for 10% spell failure. With Shield (which will work 90% of the time) a large shield, and a 14 dex, you'd be looking at AC 25 which is pretty hard for most foes to hit up to around CR 5.

With shield, shouldn't the chance be 15%, or are you assuming a Mithril Shield as well?

I'll have to give this some thought.

...

From your comments about firing from partial cover, it sounds like you're planning an archer type character (that wouldn't seem to take advantage of the Dragon Disciples' stat increases but it's certainly a functional role). In that case, the cover would not only give you most of the benefits of the shield spell, but would largely negate its usefulness (Shield gives a cover bonus so the two types of cover don't stack).

On the other hand, you also commented on the true-strike+power attack combo which is only usable in melee. In that situation, Shield often proves invaluable.

You are right, I was inconsistent.

I'm imagining a fair amount of archery in the game, but intending to be a capable Melee fighter. The shield spell is very useful for Melee, when you usually would not have cover.


I'll have to think about the Expertise/Trip route. I'm currently running a fighter with Trip and found it to be less than satisfying. It seems to me that you have to build the character specifically for this feat in order to take good advantage of it.


I'm not going to be taking a lot of Sorcerer levels. The character is mostly a Barbarian/Dragon Disciple and I want it to be a capable front line fighter. I'm seriously questioning if I would ever go beyond 4 levels of Sorcerer.


Once again, thanks people for the comments.