Subdual vs. Non-lethal

[pensiv]

There is a thread around here somewhere about d20Modern tonfas. In it there is a debate about whether the subdual damage mechanic is better than the non-lethal damage mechanic.

I must have missed something because I had thought they were the same thing. Could someone please explain to me the mechanical differences between the 3e subdual and the 3.5/d20M non-lethal damage systems?

And if you're feeling adventurous, feel free to compare the systems to WP/VP too.

 

[Rafilar]

There is a thread around here somewhere about d20Modern tonfas. In it there is a debate about whether the subdual damage mechanic is better than the non-lethal damage mechanic.

I must have missed something because I had thought they were the same thing. Could someone please explain to me the mechanical differences between the 3e subdual and the 3.5/d20M non-lethal damage systems?

And if you're feeling adventurous, feel free to compare the systems to WP/VP too.

Eh... you've kind of misunderstood the debate. The 3e subdual mechanic and the 3.5e nonlethal damage mechanic are identical. The d20M non-lethal damage mechanic, on the other hand, involves saving throws and whatnot. The idea with that system is that there should be a chance for any attack to knock someone unconscious, so there's a save on every non-lethal attack (with the DC based on the damage of the attack), and if you fail it you pass out. But, under this system, you don't accumulate non-lethal damage from round to round. The D&D system, on the other hand, only makes you pass out when you accumulate as much nonlethal damage as you have hp and blah, blah, blah.

Hope that helps.

 

[Planesdragon]

I must have missed something because I had thought they were the same thing. Could someone please explain to me the mechanical differences between the 3e subdual and the 3.5/d20M non-lethal damage systems?

Between 3e and 3.5, "subdual" was renamed to "nonlethal." In D&D, they're still the same rules.

d20 Modern, OTOH, uses a different system. Off the top of my head, a character makes a fort save equal to 10 + subdual damage inflicted, with failure meaning unconciousness and success meaning no ill effect.

(I coudl be wrong about the mechanics--check the MSRD to be sure.)

 

[Spatula]

In Modern, you only make a saving throw if you take non-lethal damage in excess of your Constitution score. Otherwise non-lethal damage has no effect.

 

[pensiv]

Thank you very much. I'm no longer confused. Time to actually read the d20M combat rules instead of thinking they're the same as D&D.

 

[Psion]

In Modern, you only make a saving throw if you take non-lethal damage in excess of your Constitution score. Otherwise non-lethal damage has no effect.

Which is the most annoying mechanic in the book, AFAIAC. But the authors defend it tooth-and-nail.

Hopefully they'll come around. Cordell did with psionics.

 

[takyris]

Whereas I am one of its stubborn defenders, and hope that they don't come around as fully as you hope.

In theory, I wouldn't object to using both subdual damage and nonlethal damage in d20 Modern (ie, having the non-permanent-damage equivalent of both hit points AND Massive Damage checks), but in practice, I'd worry that causing damage to accumulate would make Improved Brawl and Knockout Punch too powerful. Psion, have you run it that way? Did the ability to do 1d8 damage, with auto-crits if you can win Initiative and hit, unbalance things? Do you think it would unbalance things in a non-FX game?

(Not attempting to do loaded questions. My suspicion, personally, is that taking an AoO every time you attack would make those feats unattractive in a game with a lot of monsters, but that in a low-FX game, where you're usually fighting other humans, the benefits of having Improved Brawl outweigh the consequences of using it most of the time in a possibly overpowered way. But if you've run it that way and not had problems, I'd love to hear about it.)

 

[Psion]

Look, my Summon Takyris spell worked.

I'd worry that causing damage to accumulate would make Improved Brawl and Knockout Punch too powerful. Psion, have you run it that way? Did the ability to do 1d8 damage, with auto-crits if you can win Initiative and hit, unbalance things? Do you think it would unbalance things in a non-FX game?

If by "both subdual and nonlethal" you mean both allow it to accumulate and allow the potential for ko's by exceeding the MDT, yes I do. But my game hasn't been high on fisticuffs by trained fighters (though there was a pretty pathetic attempt by an untrained fighter last session, and a pretty brutal pummeling administered to the same character ), so I can't say I have a real good environment to scrutinize the effects.

If you are (like me) convinced that nonlethal damage should accumulate, I see no problem in tweaking the feats to accomodate if that is what is needed. But I am not sure it is.

What I do know is I am more satified with the effects on less trained fighters.

 

[takyris]

Of course it worked! You mentioned Nonlethal Damage!

I like the way lethal damage is handled in d20 Modern -- you've got hit points, so the whittle-down factor is there, and you've got the Con-level MDT, so that four 10th-level heroes against 20 Str1/Fast1 ordinaries isn't laughable. Give those ordinary guys mastercraft handguns (which the average policeman would have, I think -- or at least, one of the inherently mastercraft ones), PBS, and Double-Tap, and you've got a bunch of guys who can make everyone but the Tough-oriented 10th-level hero nervous in a way that four tenth-level D&D characters against 20 2nd-level fighters rarely will, by the core rules.

So yeah, I'd be up for nonlethal damage accumulation as well as a KO-chance from MDT. The only tweak I'd be really concerned about would be making sure that Improved Brawl and Knockout Punch didn't become the uberfeats -- and that's mainly because I tend to run low-monster games, so the AoO-provoking isn't as much of a deal for my players. I'd probably rule Knockout Punch and its older, meaner cousin to "double or triple the damages for purposes of exceeding the MDT only -- this extra damage does not accumulate". I'd probably leave Improved Brawl as it was until I saw it abused.

I'm running a game that's likely to involve a lot more nonlethal damage, likely using the "or current hit points" house rule (PCs versus a lot of deluded-but-not-evil low-townsfolk), since few of my PCs are brawlers. If that house rule makes things work (doing lethal to get them down into the low single digits, then whacking them out at the end), I'll probably stay there. If it still seems clunky, I'll probably add in accumulation and tweak Knockout Punch.

(Holy mackeral, I've just admitted that I'm house-ruling a change to Nonlethal Damage! I don't even know who I am anymore!)

 

[Psion]

I'm running a game that's likely to involve a lot more nonlethal damage, likely using the "or current hit points" house rule (PCs versus a lot of deluded-but-not-evil low-townsfolk), since few of my PCs are brawlers. If that house rule makes things work (doing lethal to get them down into the low single digits, then whacking them out at the end), I'll probably stay there. If it still seems clunky, I'll probably add in accumulation and tweak Knockout Punch.

(Holy mackeral, I've just admitted that I'm house-ruling a change to Nonlethal Damage! I don't even know who I am anymore!)

I thought you admitted to not being adverse to that variant (which does have some charm in its simplicity) on the d20 modern forum.