Stone shape -- yikes!

[aboyd]

The D&D game I'm in recently pushed through a dungeon even after the spell casters had run out of spells. We (the sorc & my cleric) were using up wands and scrolls and then pretty much just shooting crossbows.

The final battle was a wimpy spell casting derro, but because he had entropic shield and a fly spell and something that gave him extra bonuses from missiles (maybe the derro's built-in darkness?) we were stuck on the ground, feeling miserably ineffective. Our barbarian would leap & swing, and typically miss by inches. After many rounds, as I was staring at my remaining non-combat scrolls and trying to make them into something effective, I thought I might use stone shape to shape a slab in the ceiling to detach.

This worked, but MAN did we have to make it up as we go along. We didn't know how much it weighed, so we guessed 1000 pounds. The rules compendium said 1d6 damage per 200 pounds per 10' dropped, so from 15' we figured 5d6. We weren't sure of what kind of saves the derro might get, if any, so we set a DC of 10 + caster level + wisdom bonus (18 total, and the derro made that save, taking half damage).

I now know that granite of the size I made (4' x 4' x 1' thick) would weigh about 3000 pounds. If it were marble or slate, about 2500 pounds. Concrete, about 2300 pounds.

My question to you all is, has this already been formalized? Is there a walkthrough somewhere for this tactic? What kind of saves (if any) are "correct?"

And while I'm here, bonus question: if I want to shape rock into a very tight coffin-ish form that basically seals a person in place (maybe with a breathing hole so they can plead for their life), how can the "sealed" person get out? What kind of rules would you put down for escape? Can they burst it? How do you figure damage? At my level it looks like I could encase someone in stone about 6 inches thick all around.

Could a person save if the stone forms around them, or would the stone shape just form around their movement? What kind of save would THAT be?

 

[Mighty Halfling]

I don't think you could make it as detailed as you describe. The SRD of the spell says fine detail isn't really all that possible, so I'd rule out an in-combat entrapment.
At the very least, I'd make the caster jump through a few hoops -- Maybe a Craft check and then give the target a Reflex save to dodge out of the way (as you did for the Derro).

 

[Vurt]

Well, first of all, stone shape is a touch spell, and if you're able to touch the ceiling, you probably would have been better off trying to grapple the derro!

 

[Mighty Halfling]

Good point, Vurt. I missed that!

 

[Vurt]

And while I'm here, bonus question: if I want to shape rock into a very tight coffin-ish form that basically seals a person in place (maybe with a breathing hole so they can plead for their life), how can the "sealed" person get out? What kind of rules would you put down for escape? Can they burst it? How do you figure damage? At my level it looks like I could encase someone in stone about 6 inches thick all around.

Could a person save if the stone forms around them, or would the stone shape just form around their movement? What kind of save would THAT be?

As a DM, I don't think I'd allow a 3rd level spell this much power. I'd simply rule that the encasement process was slow enough that the target could easily step out of it or disrupt it, so long as they weren't helpless.

For reference, the 5th level spell wall of stone allows you to do what you're asking, and it's just a Reflex save to avoid.

 

[Vurt]

Good point, Vurt. I missed that!

Many an excellent plan of mine has been foiled by that simple little detail!

 

[aboyd]

I don't think you could make it as detailed as you describe. The SRD of the spell says fine detail isn't really all that possible, so I'd rule out an in-combat entrapment.

Hmm. Yes, I see. I agree & disagree. I think "column with a hole" is an extremely simple shape with no moving parts, so a stone shape spell should be able to make such a "coffin" almost effortlessly. However, the idea of it chasing after a combatant that wants to evade -- yeah, that was silly of me to even consider it. That would become an incredibly complex shape. Impossible. Thanks.

Well, first of all, stone shape is a touch spell, and if you're able to touch the ceiling, you probably would have been better off trying to grapple the derro!

Why do you have to touch the ceiling? Why not just touch the wall, and make your "shape" be a thin line of stone that leads up the wall to the ceiling and then forms a massive slab? Basically, your shape is "massive bent ladle."

(That is in fact what I did. Very simple shape, appeared very plausible to everyone including the DM.)

As a DM, I don't think I'd allow a 3rd level spell this much power. I'd simply rule that the encasement process was slow enough that the target could easily step out of it or disrupt it, so long as they weren't helpless.

The whole spell takes a standard action, so it's as slow as a someone doing a combat action, such as hitting a person on the head with a club. That, to me, suggests that AC or reflex saves apply, but not that it can be easily walked away from. Consider also the stone-to-mud with a dispel that entraps people up to their chests. What level is that spell? That's even an area of effect spell, it could get lots of people in one shot, right?

As For reference, the 5th level spell wall of stone allows you to do what you're asking, and it's just a Reflex save to avoid.

Ah, thanks. Yes, so I'd want to follow that. And the stone shape would have a lower DC because of its lower level, so that even dis-empowers it a little compare to the higher level spell. Hmm. Thanks. This is good guidance.

 

[Xanaqui]

In my opinion, Stone Shape is one of the nastiest spells in the book to deal with as a DM. In various editions, I've had multiple vampire lords die from Stone Shape (in one case, to act as a channel for a river; in the other case, to drop the vampire into the trap underneath which was created through lots of stone shapes (with accessory spells)).

Typically, I rule that non-combat spells are less effective than combat spells when used in a combat matter. I likely would have given it 5d6 + Ref save (either for none or 1/2, depending on my mood), or perhaps an attack roll for 5d6, purely based on its level (by the DMG, a single-target Cleric spell should do around 10d6 at LV 3). At absolute maximum, I'd cap it at 10d6 for its spell level (again, using the DMG guideline).

And while I'm here, bonus question: if I want to shape rock into a very tight coffin-ish form that basically seals a person in place (maybe with a breathing hole so they can plead for their life), how can the "sealed" person get out? What kind of rules would you put down for escape? Can they burst it? How do you figure damage? At my level it looks like I could encase someone in stone about 6 inches thick all around.

Could a person save if the stone forms around them, or would the stone shape just form around their movement? What kind of save would THAT be?

If I permitted it, I'd at least permit a reflex save. I would, however, be tempted to disallow tight entrapment of a mobile creature with this spell (an immobile creature, however, would be fair game with no save). The attack spells I'd compare this to would be Hold Person/Hold Monster; this seems stronger, so I'd allow any movement ability the ability to escape it, or I'd give a massive bonus on the Reflex save (+10?).

If it did succeed, we have this from the SRD, so I'd 1/4 the HP (115), and reduce the break DC by alot (to 30?):
Hewn stone (3 ft. thick) Hardness: 8 HP:540 Break DC:50

 

[Darklone]

At least I'd have given the BBEG a Refl save negates like in the Ice wall semi sphere variant ...