SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Well, I was reading another thread,--the one about Commoners and such as player-characters, and got to thinking about some things. Some comments by my friend Mmadsen in particular got me thinking, as follows:
Mmadsen wrote:
"Since first-level characters get four levels worth of skill points, and since most classes are intentionally front-loaded to represent a youth full of training, I think the game system should just get past the whole notion that competent adults are first level."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Mmadsen knows that I have an inherent dislike of 1st level characters, because of the salinet point that he makes so well, and my own thoughts as well, that:
When I consider making different npc's or player-characters, there is often--quite often especially with various npc's that are different types of professionals--the limitations of the 1st level chaarcter just doesn't accurately represent the character, and the various abilities that the character--the standard character of the profession--should have.
I'll provide a classic example, as follows:
____________________________________________________
Vallorean Legionnaires
Male Vallorean
Medium-size Humanoid
Fighter 4/Feat Master 3 (Total: 7th lvl character)
HD: 4d10+3d6+14 (54 hit points.)
Initiative: +1 (+1 DEX)
Speed: 30’ft; (20’ft. in armour.)
AC: 19 (+1 DEX/+6 Banded Mail/+2 Shield)
Attacks: +8 Shortsword or +7 Javelin; or +8 Composite Longbow
Damage: Shortsword 1d6+2/Javelin 1d6/Composite Longbow 1d8+2
Alignment: Usually Good (Usually Lawful)
Saving Throws:
Fortitude: +7
Reflex: +3
Will: +4
Abilities:
STR 14 (+2)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 14 (+2)
Feats: Skill Focus: Wilderness Lore +3*Endurance*Combat Reflexes*Dodge*Mobility*Combat Rotation*Side By Side*Team Flanking*Power Attack*Cleave*Point-Blank Shot*Far Shot*Rapid Shot*Shield Expert*Shield Charge*Improved Shield Bash*
Skills: Climb(STR)+6, Craft(INT): Stonemason+5/Carpentry+5/Mining+5, Handle Animal(CHA)+4, Jump(STR)+4, Ride(DEX)+3, Swim(STR)+4, Wilderness Lore (WIS)+7, Knowledge(INT)—War+2/Nobility+2/Streetwise+2, Diplomacy(CHA)+3, Gather Information(CHA)+3, Intimidate(CHA)+3, Listen(WIS)+3, Move Silently(DEX)+2, Search(INT)+2, Sense Motive(WIS)+3, Spot(WIS)+3, Hide(DEX)+2
Equipment
(Contained within the Backpack)
Winter Blanket
(4) Steel flasks of oil
(4) Torches
Carpentry Tools (MW)
Miner’s Tools (MW)
Thick, black woolen cloak
Silver double-headed eagle brooch
Leather gloves
Black Leather Belt; silver studded, silver buckle.
Trousers (4)
Shirts (6)
Tunics (6)
Socks/shorts (8)
Small Silver Mirror
Whetstone
Spade
Daggers MW (2)
Steel Eating Utensils
Camouflage Stick (6)
Alchemist Fire (6)
Sunrod (12)
Tindertwig (12)
Smokestick (6)
Antitoxin (6)
Potion of Ink-Black (1) (250GP)
Waterskin of Plenty: The Waterskin of Plenty is an ordinary-seeming gallon waterskin of leather and animal hide, with a nozzle and stoppered lid, and a sturdy leather shoulder-strap. The Waterskin of Plenty can hold up to one full gallon of liquid; In addition, though, the Waterskin of Plenty can create a gallon of refreshing, pure water upon the simple command “Create Water”. The Waterskin of Plenty can provide this up to six times per day. The water thus created is cold, refreshing rain-water.
Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, create water, market price: 1350 GP.
Field-Pack of Wonder: The strange pouch is fashioned of some rugged, sponge-like substance that forms a small shoulder pouch, with a folding cover-flap and silver buckles. The pouch is enchanted to endure elements, (cold), and is moisture resistant, keeping all of the interior of the pouch dry and free of moisture. The owner of the Field-Pack of Wonder can reach within the pouch and pull forth a gallon waterskin full of cold, fresh water, or of sugared hot tea, up two 2/day. In addition, the owner can reach in and discover that the pouch has provided a nutritious meal for one person, 3/day. Each meal of field rations is fully nutritious, and composed of something potentially different each time a meal is brought from the pouch. Besides the main course, the meal includes thick, chewy crackers that have a slightly salty flavour, as well as a small pouch of cheese spread. The meal has at best, a slightly disturbing flavour and odor, but remains completely safe and nutritious to eat. Instructions in small print on the outside of the strange pouches explain that the meal can be enjoyed hot or cold.
Meal: (Roll 1D20 each time a meal is selected, to determine what kind of meal appears.)
(01-05)—Ham: This selection is a strange brick of ham. The wrapper says ham, and it does have a dull pink coloration. You believe that it’s ham…
(06-10)—Chicken and Noodles: There is a small pouch that says chicken and noodles on it. The brick of chicken resembles the similar brick of ham. Still, the colour is different, sort of a pale tan coloration. It smells like chicken. The wrapper even says chicken…The noodles are broad and thick, with a chewy texture. They have a dark yellow coloration, and tend to be a bit gooey.
(11-15)—Beef Stew: This small pouch has seemingly the same noodles in it as from the Chicken and Noodles selection. In addition, squares of bright orange carrots can be seen swimming in the stew, with cubes of dark, peppery beef. The meat is tough and leathery, and the dark brown gravy has a distinct odor to it.
(16-20)—BBQed Beef: This pouch has a dark reddish-brown sauce, which is thick and has chunks of pepper, onion, mushrooms, and beef swimming about in it. The meat is tough, and the sauce is very peppery. The sauce is overwhelming in spice.
Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, endure elements, create food and water, enlarge; Market Price: 1,200 GP. Weight: 1 lb.
Cloak of Elvenkind (2000gp)
Boots of Elvenkind (2000gp)
Everburning Torch (90gp)
MW Mighty Composite Longbow (+2 STR) (600gp)
Quiver of (20) MW +1 To-Hit Arrows
MW Javelin
MW Gladius
MW Banded-Mail; This armour is crafted of black steel, with inlays of silver throughout the edges and greaves.
MW Large Steel Shield: This rectangular shield is finely crafted, and has a dark blue background, edged in black. In the center, is a large two-headed silver eagle, with outstretched claws holding onto fiery lightning bolts of a bright shimmering silver; Behind the great two-headed eagle is a brilliant dawn sunburst of gold.
Over the black and silver armour, the Vallorean Legionnaire wears a dark blue tabard that is trimmed in silver, with a black collar.
Vallorean War-Helm: The Legionnaire’s Helmet has a detachable grilled face-mask, and an extensive neck shield that sweeps down covering the rear of the neck; A peaked crown, almost flat at the top, protects the head with it’s thick steel. This enchanted helmet allows whispered communication with up to 20 creatures within a 300’ft radius, for 200 minutes per usage. The whisper-mode of communication can be used as a free action by the wearer. The whisper-mode of the helmet can be used up to 3/day.
Caster Level: 20th level Wizard; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Message; Market Price: 11,250GP; Weight: 3 lbs.
The Vallorean Legions are the premier professional military force upon the continent. The Legions are famous for their training, sophisticated siege-warfare skills, and their ferocity in combat. The Legions train constantly, and the Legions training program is vigorous and demanding. The Legions bleed in training, so that in war, the battle seems to be a bloodless training operation. The Legions have sophisticated and in depth medical services, which are heavily supported by the different religious orders from throughout the Vallorean Empire. Valloreans are trained hard, and they are equipped with the finest in equipment and weapons. Individually, the Legionnaires are somewhat modestly equipped when compared with some of the champions in foreign hordes. However, the Vallorean Legions achieve military victory not based on individual heroism and superior skills, but an aggregate of the whole fighting force, well-drilled, absolutely committed, and instilled with iron discipline. It is the broad range of effective support provided to the legions, combined with a comprehensive discipline that ensures that the whole legion operates swiftly, precisely, and with maximum force to a range of sophisticated tactical formations and battlefield orders, that in the time and space of enagaged battle, the enemy forces are simply worn down and overmatched. Legionnaires can expect to train in all climates and terrains, and become accustomed to marching 25-40 miles per day. The legionnaires are trained in a number of other skills, such as stonemasonry, or carpentry, so as to be able to supply necessary building and siege skills when the legion is in the field. Legionnaires are trained to be experts in a range of warfighting skills, and even as individuals, they are formidable. In a large group, the legionnaires training, equipment, and discipline ensures that virtually anywhere the Legion marches, they can with confidence engage in combat with enemies that outnumber them by three to one, or more, and emerge victorious. The Legions are provided with the best that the Vallorean Empire can supply them with, and whenever the Legions are involved in combat operations, there are a variety of powerful resources and assets that are available to the local commander. These resources include war-machines, artillery, siege equipment, wizards, special assault troops, as well as an abundance of support experts and specialists that can form anything from a series of fortifications quickly, to special weaponry suited to operating against hordes of Undead, or even Demonic creatures. Over time, the Vallorean infrastructure can power-project an incredible amount of forces for both offense or defense from around the boundaries of the empire to any threatened sector. This ability to rapidly mobilize and to maintain a plentiful logistical base that continues to pour ever-increasing numbers of troops and equipment into a threatened area is perhaps unique to the Vallorean Empire, and one of the reasons that the Vallorean Empire endures in such a position of dominance.
____________________________________________________
As can be seen, the character, in order to have the appropriate feats and abilities, must be worked up as a 4th-7th level character. There isn't anything particularly extraordinary about the character, as an individual, or as a legion of thousands. I would envision a standard Legionnaire as described here as approximately a veteran of 18 months-3 years service. Assuming he enlisted at say, 16-18 years old, this could be the standard Legionnaire that the player-characters might encounter while travelling along one the Imperial Roads, or the King's Highway, or quartered at a remote border fortress, where the player-characters are operating from.
In thinking about such a character's background, a level one character, as a "professional adult" seems more to me, as the barest trained recruit, raw and untested, and in battle next to worthless. I can't see the standard 1st level Fighters--let alone a level 1 or level 2 Warrior--as the standard soldier that the security of the glorious empire has depended on for centuries, and the future safety and progress of the empire is resting on the shoulders of thousands of level 1 Fighters or level 1 Warriors. To my thinking, it just doesn't make sense. Others may disagree, of course, and I'm always open to other viewpoints, but this is how I see it.
What do you think? Do you see what I'm saying?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, I was reading another thread,--the one about Commoners and such as player-characters, and got to thinking about some things. Some comments by my friend Mmadsen in particular got me thinking, as follows:
Mmadsen wrote:
"Since first-level characters get four levels worth of skill points, and since most classes are intentionally front-loaded to represent a youth full of training, I think the game system should just get past the whole notion that competent adults are first level."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.
Mmadsen knows that I have an inherent dislike of 1st level characters, because of the salinet point that he makes so well, and my own thoughts as well, that:
When I consider making different npc's or player-characters, there is often--quite often especially with various npc's that are different types of professionals--the limitations of the 1st level chaarcter just doesn't accurately represent the character, and the various abilities that the character--the standard character of the profession--should have.
I'll provide a classic example, as follows:
____________________________________________________
Vallorean Legionnaires
Male Vallorean
Medium-size Humanoid
Fighter 4/Feat Master 3 (Total: 7th lvl character)
HD: 4d10+3d6+14 (54 hit points.)
Initiative: +1 (+1 DEX)
Speed: 30’ft; (20’ft. in armour.)
AC: 19 (+1 DEX/+6 Banded Mail/+2 Shield)
Attacks: +8 Shortsword or +7 Javelin; or +8 Composite Longbow
Damage: Shortsword 1d6+2/Javelin 1d6/Composite Longbow 1d8+2
Alignment: Usually Good (Usually Lawful)
Saving Throws:
Fortitude: +7
Reflex: +3
Will: +4
Abilities:
STR 14 (+2)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 14 (+2)
INT 12 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 14 (+2)
Feats: Skill Focus: Wilderness Lore +3*Endurance*Combat Reflexes*Dodge*Mobility*Combat Rotation*Side By Side*Team Flanking*Power Attack*Cleave*Point-Blank Shot*Far Shot*Rapid Shot*Shield Expert*Shield Charge*Improved Shield Bash*
Skills: Climb(STR)+6, Craft(INT): Stonemason+5/Carpentry+5/Mining+5, Handle Animal(CHA)+4, Jump(STR)+4, Ride(DEX)+3, Swim(STR)+4, Wilderness Lore (WIS)+7, Knowledge(INT)—War+2/Nobility+2/Streetwise+2, Diplomacy(CHA)+3, Gather Information(CHA)+3, Intimidate(CHA)+3, Listen(WIS)+3, Move Silently(DEX)+2, Search(INT)+2, Sense Motive(WIS)+3, Spot(WIS)+3, Hide(DEX)+2
Equipment
(Contained within the Backpack)
Winter Blanket
(4) Steel flasks of oil
(4) Torches
Carpentry Tools (MW)
Miner’s Tools (MW)
Thick, black woolen cloak
Silver double-headed eagle brooch
Leather gloves
Black Leather Belt; silver studded, silver buckle.
Trousers (4)
Shirts (6)
Tunics (6)
Socks/shorts (8)
Small Silver Mirror
Whetstone
Spade
Daggers MW (2)
Steel Eating Utensils
Camouflage Stick (6)
Alchemist Fire (6)
Sunrod (12)
Tindertwig (12)
Smokestick (6)
Antitoxin (6)
Potion of Ink-Black (1) (250GP)
Waterskin of Plenty: The Waterskin of Plenty is an ordinary-seeming gallon waterskin of leather and animal hide, with a nozzle and stoppered lid, and a sturdy leather shoulder-strap. The Waterskin of Plenty can hold up to one full gallon of liquid; In addition, though, the Waterskin of Plenty can create a gallon of refreshing, pure water upon the simple command “Create Water”. The Waterskin of Plenty can provide this up to six times per day. The water thus created is cold, refreshing rain-water.
Caster Level: 3rd; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, create water, market price: 1350 GP.
Field-Pack of Wonder: The strange pouch is fashioned of some rugged, sponge-like substance that forms a small shoulder pouch, with a folding cover-flap and silver buckles. The pouch is enchanted to endure elements, (cold), and is moisture resistant, keeping all of the interior of the pouch dry and free of moisture. The owner of the Field-Pack of Wonder can reach within the pouch and pull forth a gallon waterskin full of cold, fresh water, or of sugared hot tea, up two 2/day. In addition, the owner can reach in and discover that the pouch has provided a nutritious meal for one person, 3/day. Each meal of field rations is fully nutritious, and composed of something potentially different each time a meal is brought from the pouch. Besides the main course, the meal includes thick, chewy crackers that have a slightly salty flavour, as well as a small pouch of cheese spread. The meal has at best, a slightly disturbing flavour and odor, but remains completely safe and nutritious to eat. Instructions in small print on the outside of the strange pouches explain that the meal can be enjoyed hot or cold.
Meal: (Roll 1D20 each time a meal is selected, to determine what kind of meal appears.)
(01-05)—Ham: This selection is a strange brick of ham. The wrapper says ham, and it does have a dull pink coloration. You believe that it’s ham…
(06-10)—Chicken and Noodles: There is a small pouch that says chicken and noodles on it. The brick of chicken resembles the similar brick of ham. Still, the colour is different, sort of a pale tan coloration. It smells like chicken. The wrapper even says chicken…The noodles are broad and thick, with a chewy texture. They have a dark yellow coloration, and tend to be a bit gooey.
(11-15)—Beef Stew: This small pouch has seemingly the same noodles in it as from the Chicken and Noodles selection. In addition, squares of bright orange carrots can be seen swimming in the stew, with cubes of dark, peppery beef. The meat is tough and leathery, and the dark brown gravy has a distinct odor to it.
(16-20)—BBQed Beef: This pouch has a dark reddish-brown sauce, which is thick and has chunks of pepper, onion, mushrooms, and beef swimming about in it. The meat is tough, and the sauce is very peppery. The sauce is overwhelming in spice.
Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, endure elements, create food and water, enlarge; Market Price: 1,200 GP. Weight: 1 lb.
Cloak of Elvenkind (2000gp)
Boots of Elvenkind (2000gp)
Everburning Torch (90gp)
MW Mighty Composite Longbow (+2 STR) (600gp)
Quiver of (20) MW +1 To-Hit Arrows
MW Javelin
MW Gladius
MW Banded-Mail; This armour is crafted of black steel, with inlays of silver throughout the edges and greaves.
MW Large Steel Shield: This rectangular shield is finely crafted, and has a dark blue background, edged in black. In the center, is a large two-headed silver eagle, with outstretched claws holding onto fiery lightning bolts of a bright shimmering silver; Behind the great two-headed eagle is a brilliant dawn sunburst of gold.
Over the black and silver armour, the Vallorean Legionnaire wears a dark blue tabard that is trimmed in silver, with a black collar.
Vallorean War-Helm: The Legionnaire’s Helmet has a detachable grilled face-mask, and an extensive neck shield that sweeps down covering the rear of the neck; A peaked crown, almost flat at the top, protects the head with it’s thick steel. This enchanted helmet allows whispered communication with up to 20 creatures within a 300’ft radius, for 200 minutes per usage. The whisper-mode of communication can be used as a free action by the wearer. The whisper-mode of the helmet can be used up to 3/day.
Caster Level: 20th level Wizard; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Message; Market Price: 11,250GP; Weight: 3 lbs.
The Vallorean Legions are the premier professional military force upon the continent. The Legions are famous for their training, sophisticated siege-warfare skills, and their ferocity in combat. The Legions train constantly, and the Legions training program is vigorous and demanding. The Legions bleed in training, so that in war, the battle seems to be a bloodless training operation. The Legions have sophisticated and in depth medical services, which are heavily supported by the different religious orders from throughout the Vallorean Empire. Valloreans are trained hard, and they are equipped with the finest in equipment and weapons. Individually, the Legionnaires are somewhat modestly equipped when compared with some of the champions in foreign hordes. However, the Vallorean Legions achieve military victory not based on individual heroism and superior skills, but an aggregate of the whole fighting force, well-drilled, absolutely committed, and instilled with iron discipline. It is the broad range of effective support provided to the legions, combined with a comprehensive discipline that ensures that the whole legion operates swiftly, precisely, and with maximum force to a range of sophisticated tactical formations and battlefield orders, that in the time and space of enagaged battle, the enemy forces are simply worn down and overmatched. Legionnaires can expect to train in all climates and terrains, and become accustomed to marching 25-40 miles per day. The legionnaires are trained in a number of other skills, such as stonemasonry, or carpentry, so as to be able to supply necessary building and siege skills when the legion is in the field. Legionnaires are trained to be experts in a range of warfighting skills, and even as individuals, they are formidable. In a large group, the legionnaires training, equipment, and discipline ensures that virtually anywhere the Legion marches, they can with confidence engage in combat with enemies that outnumber them by three to one, or more, and emerge victorious. The Legions are provided with the best that the Vallorean Empire can supply them with, and whenever the Legions are involved in combat operations, there are a variety of powerful resources and assets that are available to the local commander. These resources include war-machines, artillery, siege equipment, wizards, special assault troops, as well as an abundance of support experts and specialists that can form anything from a series of fortifications quickly, to special weaponry suited to operating against hordes of Undead, or even Demonic creatures. Over time, the Vallorean infrastructure can power-project an incredible amount of forces for both offense or defense from around the boundaries of the empire to any threatened sector. This ability to rapidly mobilize and to maintain a plentiful logistical base that continues to pour ever-increasing numbers of troops and equipment into a threatened area is perhaps unique to the Vallorean Empire, and one of the reasons that the Vallorean Empire endures in such a position of dominance.
____________________________________________________
As can be seen, the character, in order to have the appropriate feats and abilities, must be worked up as a 4th-7th level character. There isn't anything particularly extraordinary about the character, as an individual, or as a legion of thousands. I would envision a standard Legionnaire as described here as approximately a veteran of 18 months-3 years service. Assuming he enlisted at say, 16-18 years old, this could be the standard Legionnaire that the player-characters might encounter while travelling along one the Imperial Roads, or the King's Highway, or quartered at a remote border fortress, where the player-characters are operating from.
In thinking about such a character's background, a level one character, as a "professional adult" seems more to me, as the barest trained recruit, raw and untested, and in battle next to worthless. I can't see the standard 1st level Fighters--let alone a level 1 or level 2 Warrior--as the standard soldier that the security of the glorious empire has depended on for centuries, and the future safety and progress of the empire is resting on the shoulders of thousands of level 1 Fighters or level 1 Warriors. To my thinking, it just doesn't make sense. Others may disagree, of course, and I'm always open to other viewpoints, but this is how I see it.
What do you think? Do you see what I'm saying?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
