Staggered condition and Ray of Dizziness

[Werebat]

I know I'm mixing game systems here, but it's surely not an uncommon mix, so here goes...

Spell Compendium has a spell called Ray of Dizziness that is a ranged touch attack with no save. The staggered condition didn't exist in 3.5 but Ray of Dizziness produced effects identical to the staggered condition.

One of the reasons some players loved RoD (when they were the ones using it) is that it was a save-or-suck spell that didn't allow a saving throw (presumably on the pretext that the ranged touch attack "could" miss its target). Thus it was considered a grand spell to use on easy-to-touch big bads like dragons.

Also, since it didn't technically inflict an "condition" on its target, there was no real way to get rid of it other than waiting the spell out. Heal didn't remove it because it wasn't a condition. Any other spell with a list of conditions that it removed didn't do so either because it wasn't on that list.

Pathfinder does have the staggered condition and it a player wanted to use RoD in a pathfinder game where SC was allowed, it would seem reasonable to say that it inflicted the staggered condition on those affected by it. However, a quick look through the books reveals that while PF created the staggered condition it didn't seem to acknowledge it anywhere. Thus, no creature types are immune to being staggered (not even undead or constructs). Spells that remove lists of conditions don't seem to mention the staggered condition. Therefore, making RoD inflict the staggered condition in PF doesn't seem to alter the spell's powergaming juiciness much, which is irritating for this DM who thinks the spell is a bit OP.

Any suggestions? Am I missing something? What creature types should be immune to staggering? What spells should remove the condition? Are there any other ranged touch attack spells in PF with the same "you-get-no-save-and-you-suck" mechanism, and how do they work? I'm thinking a save every round might be appropriate, but what kind?

Or maybe RoD allows a caster to make a ranged touch attack every round for the spell duration, which staggers its target for a round if it hits?

???

 

[James Jacobs]

The staggered condition has existed in 3.5 for a long time, but only as the condition you're in when you're at exactly 0 hit points. For Pathfinder, we opened that up because it's an obvious condition that could give for some cool effects (sort of a bookend to nausea, which forces you to take only one move action, where as staggered forces you to take only one standard action).

A conversion of ray of dizziness, though, SHOULD grant a save, with a successful save reducing the duration of the staggered condition down to 1 round or something like that.

(The design philosophy that, if it requires an attack roll, that means there's no save is a 3.5 philosophy that we do not retain in Pathfinder—some ray spells, like ray of enfeeblement, are just too god to not give saves to resist partial; disintegrate is a great example that existed as an attack roll AND save spell from 3.5, in fact.)

As for what creatures should be immune to staggering... not many. It's a pretty universal condition, after all; being so overwhelmed that you can't take full actions can be something that applies to LOTS of creatures. And remember, if you make a creature immune to being staggered, he gets a full round of actions while at 0 hit points if you're not careful to include an exception to the rule.

For ray of dizziness in particular, I don't recall the exact effects of the spell, but it sounds like it might also be a mind-affecting spell since being dizzy feels to me to be a mind-effecting effect. In this case, ray of dizziness wouldn't work on creatures immune to mind-affecting spells, of which there are a lot.

Anyway, if you give the spell a save that reduces the staggered condition down to 1 round if successful, I think you're probably good to go. It's STILL a good option for spellcasting against big bad guys, since often 1 round less of full attacks can make all the difference.

 

[Werebat]

Thanks for the response. I hadn't noticed staggered as a condition in 3.5 before, but there you go.

The effects of RoD are, as I say, identical to being staggered (you may only make a move or a standard action per round).

I don't see being dizzy as a mind-affecting condition so much as a physiological one. It results from disorientation due to overstimulation of the body's natural balance sensors. I'm thinking a Fort save may be most appropriate.

As for immunity, I'm thinking creatures that are "immune" to being staggered by virtue of being destroyed once they hit 0 hit points should be immune to dizziness (constructs and undead, I believe). Oozes seem like they should be immune, too, as well as maybe plants.

I totally agree, BTW, with the decision to grant saves for those offensive ranged touch attack spells. Good call.

- Ron ^*^

Edit: The types immune to mind-affecting effects are constructs, undead, oozes, plants, and vermin, pretty much all the types I mentioned. I can live with worms and ants being immune to dizziness, so your suggestion might be the best choice here after all. Make it a mind-affecting effect with a Fort save cutting the duration to one round and I guess I'm good to go.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, staggered existed in 3E. Condition Summary Index :: d20srd.org

It says you're staggered when nonlethal damage equals current hp, but also gives a pretty clear description of what the condition does. And there were other and early abilities to stagger a foe without beating him up first. My personal favorite is the Staggering Strike feat from C.Adventurer.

Also, I think Ray of Enfeeblement got nerfed too much in Pathfinder.
Don't mind Ray of Dizziness having a save to reduce to one round necessarily, but depending on what spell level it is, I might reduce it one level or something in that case. I mean, put things in perspective...Staggered isn't much different than slowed (actually not as bad, no AC or speed penalty). And in the PF slow spell description, it actually says foes are staggered, plus the other bad stuff. So, if you can use a level 3 spell to (save negates) stagger and more a whole bunch of enemies, then a spell that requires a touch attack and only hits one enemy and save reduces to one round is higher level, it's utterly worthless. If it's level 3, it's probably still strictly worse.

 

[coyote6]

Ray of dizziness is 3rd level, FWIW, and is a mind affecting Enchantment/Compulsion.

So, if a save reduced it to one round, it would be pretty bad as a third level spell -- compared to slow, it would trade multiple targets & auto-hit to be a single target, touch attack to get one guaranteed round of effect. Oh, and it's always a lesser effect, too, since slow also halves speed and penalizes Ref & AC, and isn't mind affecting (and thus there aren't huge swathes of monsters immune to it).

Also, the ray is not impossible to get rid of; as a spell with a duration, it can be dispelled.

"No save" seems like overkill, but when you start comparing it to slow, giving it a save for no or nearly no effect seems to make it really too weak. So, if "no save" is too much, it should probably be a 2nd level spell, be half-duration on a save, or maybe inflict a lesser condition (not that I can think of a condition less than staggered that's not entirely different -- dazed would actually be worse, since that gives no actions).

 

[Werebat]

It's ALREADY a mind-affecting spell? I have NOT done my homework!

I "get" the comparison to Slow, and have noticed it myself in the past. Yes, same level but forces a lesser effect on only one target -- I see the logic behind eliminating the save. The problem really is that as written it becomes a "dragon killer" spell used to make fights with a lone big bad into jokes. Real dragons will have SR, it's true, but there are so many ways to negate SR that it isn't really a viable defense anymore.

(Mind also that most lone monsters tend to have crap touch ACs... In effect the spell becomes "insta-kill the big monster", which I find annoying)

Still, if it's ALREADY mind-affecting, and can be dispelled... It's not quite as potent as I'd thought.

- Ron ^*^