Spirited Charge and Charging Lance

[takasi]

Description of Spirited Charge:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spiritedCharge
"When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

Do you do double the damage from a weapon's bonus, as with the 2d6 from a charging weapon (from MIC), sneak attack or other bonuses?

My first instinct is no, but this is only due to this passage from magic items:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
"Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit. "

However, spirited charge (and lances in general) do double (possibly triple) damage; this is not a critical hit. Can anyone quote an official rule that would indicate that damage modifiers (like sneak attack, elemental damage, holy, etc) would not be doubled (or tripled) with this feat (or weapon)?

 

[Darklone]

Even if it's strangely worded, I wouldn't make an exception from the usual case.

And the feat is strong enough anyhow. Use level 1 mounted fighter NPCs and you'll see.

 

[frankthedm]

Do you do double the damage from a weapon's bonus, as with the 2d6 from a charging weapon (from MIC), sneak attack or other bonuses?

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

There you go.

 

[Piratecat]

Frank has it right. Any additional dice of damage are never doubled.

 

[takasi]

There you go.

That's what I needed. Thanks again Frank!

 

[kjenks]

And the feat is strong enough anyhow. Use level 1 mounted fighter NPCs and you'll see.

Level 1 human fighter
Str 18 (none of the rest of the stats matter much)
Skills: Ride
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Equipment: Light warhorse, saddle, lance

Mounted lance charge: +7 attack, 3d8+18 damage

+1 more on attack rolls if opponent is smaller than mount

These guys are ridiculously easy to defeat with ranged weapons, spells, and alchemical gear (like tanglefoot bags), but if you're outside with no cover or difficult terrain nearby, your party could be in serious trouble.

Or try these:

Level 6 human fighter
Str 19 (none of the rest of the stats matter much)
Skills: Ride
Feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
+ Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper
Equipment: Light warhorse, saddle, +1 lance

Mounted lance charge: +13 attack, 3d8+57 damage

+1 more on attack rolls if opponent is smaller than mount

The Heedless Charge tactic from the Shock Trooper feat allows these guys to modify Power Attack so that they subtract the PA number from Armor Class instead of their attack roll. Armor Class doesn't matter very much after a Ride-by Attack unless you're getting attacked by ranged weapons. Two-handed Power Attack gives a +12 damage bonus, and that's tripled by Spirited Charge.

By level 6, you could even put in a level of barbarian with the Reckless Rage feat for more ouchiness.

These NPCs are even easier to defeat than their 1st-level cousins because the party has many more resources for creating difficult terrain, going invisible, imposing smoke or fog, or otherwise preventing mounted lance charges. But if they do get to attack, it's gonna sting.

 

[takasi]

I am in the process of building a Living Greyhawk gnome fighter. Do you guys think this will be a survivable build? Someone told me that you can't use a lance two handed to power attack while mounted, but I can't find that anywhere in the rules. Can anyone confirm? At third level with gauntlets he could two handed power attack with a charge for masterwork lance +8 (3d6+36), does that look right? And another question: if he scores a crit, is it effectively 9d6+108?

Male gnome fighter 1
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 13 (1 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +5 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +1 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +1; Grp +0
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills Handle Animal 4/+3, Ride 4/+5
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, pony


Male gnome fighter 2
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 22 (2 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +6 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +2 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +2; Grp +1
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, warpony

Male gnome fighter 3
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20
hp 31 (3 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +0
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee masterwork lance +9 (1d6+4 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +3 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +3; Grp +3
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, full plate, heavy steel shield, warpony, gauntlets of ogre power

 

[Ragnar69]

Looks correct to me.

I´m toying with the idea of a paladin on a (celestial) rhino, but somehow it doesn´t fit right. I would like to overrun/trample/bullrush by into an infantrie formation by charging one of the rear guys. But the rhino ha s no hoove attack for trample and all the feats only alow 1 creature to be overrun/bullrushed/trampled if I read it right. Maybe Imrpoved Overrun for the rhino for the first opponent, Trample from the pala on the second, and a charhe from both on the third guy.

 

[frankthedm]

and a charhe from both on the third guy.

You would have to forgo a lance. The reach of that weapon means either you or the rhino won't be able to attack that last foe in 3.5.

Also...

The 3.5 errata on Overrun will prevent the rhino from being able to attack at ALL if it overruns.

 

[kjenks]

I am in the process of building a Living Greyhawk gnome fighter. Do you guys think this will be a survivable build? Someone told me that you can't use a lance two handed to power attack while mounted, but I can't find that anywhere in the rules. Can anyone confirm?

Someone told you wrong. A lance is a two-handed weapon and you can use it to get 2x Power Attack, while mounted or on foot.

While mounted, you may use a lance one-handed, but you'd lose out on the 1.5x Str bonus and 2x Power Attack for the dubious benefit of using your off-hand for a shield. After a Ride-by Attack, you're not likely to need much AC anyway.

At third level with gauntlets he could two handed power attack with a charge for masterwork lance +8 (3d6+36), does that look right?

At level 3, your gnome would have an attack bonus like this:

+3 BAB
-3 Power Attack
+2 charging
+1 size
+1 masterwork enhancement
+4 Strength bonus
===
+8 attack

Damage would be:
1d6 small lance
+6 Strength bonus, two-handed
+12 Power Attack
===
1d6+18

Triple damage from Spirited Charge would be
3d6+54

And another question: if he scores a crit, is it effectively 9d6+108?

Heavens, no!

A critical hit with a lance is x3. Spirited Charge is x3. Add them together and you get x5.

So your mounted lance charge critical hit inflicts 5d6+90

Male gnome fighter 1
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 13 (1 HD)
Fort +5, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +5 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +1 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +1; Grp +0
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack
Skills Handle Animal 4/+3, Ride 4/+5
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, pony


Male gnome fighter 2
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat-footed 17
hp 22 (2 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will -1
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee lance +6 (1d6+3 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +2 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +2; Grp +1
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, scalemail, heavy steel shield, warpony

Male gnome fighter 3
Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +0, Senses low-light vision, Spot -1, Listen -1
Languages Common, Gnome
----------------------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20
hp 31 (3 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +0
----------------------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee masterwork lance +9 (1d6+4 / x3) or
Ranged longbow +3 (1d6 / x3)
Base Atk +3; Grp +3
Atk options Ride-by-Attack
----------------------------------
Abilities Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats Mounted Combat, Ride-by-Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack
Skills Handle Animal 5/+4, Ride 5/+8
Possession combat gear, full plate, heavy steel shield, warpony, gauntlets of ogre power

Pick up Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper as you level up. Also consider Beastmaster levels for an animal companion; a dire bat is really nice for this character.