Spells for self preservation vs. being a useful party mage/priest

[Quasqueton]

Consider the average wizard. What percentage of his spells are used for self preservation, versus spells used to buff allies, versus spells used to harm enemies?

How about the average cleric? Percentage of spells for self, spells for allies, spells on enemies?

Sorcerer?

Druid?

Bard?

Are rangers and paladins worth mentioning as spellcasters?


What prompted me to ask this is a thread in the Rules forum about how a 4th-level wizard with 12 hp can survive. Several folks suggested a variety of protection spells. But how many spells can a mage or priest spend on himself and still be a productive member of the party?

Quasqueton

 

[Blue]

Depends on the world

I think the amount of buff/protection/etc spells varies a great deal by character, campaign, and DM.

I've seen "coward" mages, who cast nothing until they've got up their four or seven protective spells, and mainly tie up the enemy trying to hurt them until the rest of their party kills the foes. I've run the 7 Con Wizard (d4-2 HP per level) who rarely uses any protection spells that didn't last for less then an hour, and would run into melee. (And in a 3 year combat heavy campaign he only died once.)

To try and delve into the parts of the question.

Arcane/Divine - still too wide. A sorcerer (with few spells known) casts much differntly then a wizard. A limited spells known caster may have less spells (maybe just mage armor to start), but are probably more willing to cast it often. A wizard might have a large selection of spells available, and the distribution is based on what they are planning to do (time in the big city, travelling outdoors, in a dungeon crawl, negotiating with a foreign prince, etc.) and what they expect to have to do. Clerics and druids are more like the wizard, some of the spontaneous divine casters from other books (favored soul) are more like the wizard. The spirit shaman from the Complete Divine is probably in a category somewhere between the two. But in general the divine casters have different non-spell capabilities then the arcane ones, and that will also change the spell mix.

Protection/Bluff - there is a big difference between single combat protective and amp spells and ones that will last for a while. If you don't have to take time at a combat to cast it's a whole different ball game.

All in all, I think just about any mix can be successful with some character with some DM. But that character and world may not be the ones you are playing. 8)

Cheers,
=Blue

 

[tarchon]

Bard?

In my bard incarnation, counting things that affected the whole group (bard songs, Invis Circle) I'd guess probably about 1/2 on or for other people (Insp Greatness, Phantom Steed, Cure Light, Prot Evil), 1/4 on me (Prot Evil, Phantom Steed), and about 1/4 offensive/utility spells (Pyrotechnics, Sleep, Tongues, Charm, Scare, Sculpt Sound, Det Magic, Dancing Lights).

 

[I'm A Banana]

IMHO, the best spellcasters always cast with an eye toward the party. While it's useful to turn yourself into a fighter for a few rounds, it's normally *much* more useful just to buff the fighter (or even the cleric), and have him protect you.

Self-interested spellcasters who insist on protecting themselves above all ultimately fail, because one Dispel Magic and they're useless.

Sure, the cleric CAN be quite a machine if he wants to be. But that leaves the rest of the party high and dry, and when his spells run out and his opponents dispel his magic, he's a sitting duck.

Meanwhile, if he turns the machine into a BETTER machine, not only does it help the party in general by making the encounter less difficult, it helps him specifically by sending someone with higher hit points into the middle of the fray, and a Dispel will only slow them down, not stop them cold.

It's kind of mathematical: would you rather add +1 to 0, or to 1?

On this scale, normally Wizards are at the far 'preserve self' end. They don't have a lot of spells, and those they do have are geared to blowing stuff up, which tends to piss off anything that survives. Wizards feel the most frail, so they're the most likely to buy a wand of Mage Armor instead of a wand of Magic Missle. Though even this adds to the party by softening up the enemy, and protecting one of their most unguarded flank -- the spellcaster.

Sorcerers are slightly less than wizards, because they have so many spells...they can be just as frail, but they tend to have more staying power. They'd buy a wand of Magic Missile simply because they'd cast it all day sitting behind their Mage Armor that can be put up again and again (Having more Magic Missiles is more useful to a party than having more Mage Armors).

Druids fit about on the level of sorcerers, mostly because buffing their animal companion is pretty much like buffing themselves, and they tend to focus on the destructive divine magic and melee powers.

Psions tend to be the lowest of the 'preseve self' end, because although they often feel quite frail, their versatility ensures that an entire party will benefit almost as much as they themselves will.

Bards balance the line a bit, but tend to support the party over themselves. Heck, even Bardic Music is geared for that. They're not the soft targets wizards and sorcerers are (though they still ain't tough), and they can enhance things almost as well as the cleric. Plus, when their magic works, it's nearly insta-kill: a Charmed monster doesn't resist.

Clerics sit firmly in the 'party benefit' camp, because, again, giving someone with a BAB of +5 another +1 bonus to hit is going to be a lot better than giving someone with a BAB of +3 that +1 to hit. Same things with AC's. Saves are a bit iffy, since people like to shore up their weaknesses here, but same principle. They have a few specific self-benefit spells, but I've never seen a cleric use 'em...they're too busy healing and giving +1's out to worry about entering melee with the combat monsters. Instead, they'll help the Wizard or Sorcerer or Druid out by making them less of a target.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Hm. For the wizard I've been playing, far less than half of the spells I memorize are defensive.

Generally he keeps a Mage Armor on, and hangs on to a Shield, a Mirror Image, an Improved Invisibility, and occasionally a Blaise's Iron Bead (Relics and Rituals 2; think "Stoneskin on steroids"). Plus one or two memorizations of Iceshards, another R&R2 spell that can be used to enhance your armor class but also can be spent as attacks against your enemies, which generally means it's defensive until combat's nearly over or the spell's duration is almost up, and then some poor unlucky jerk gets pelted with them. That's only 5 or 6 spells at the very most for a 10th level Wizard with a good Int score, which leaves a lot of space for memorizing other things.

Over the months we've been playing this game, I've settled on this as being his optimum defense spell rack; it's more than he needs to cast for a typical situation, and just enough to keep him safe if the fight is really tough and he can't keep away from the bad guys. Really, most of the time I'm working off the idea that a good offense is the best defense and therefore taking out opponents before they can hit anyone is better than casting a spell that just makes it hard to hit you, and that attitude has paid off handsomely for our group.

As far as spells for other people go, he usually keeps a buff spell around for the frontline fighters (using a pearl of power to re-cast it and get more mileage from it); anything else is determined by what we're planning to do next. Maybe he'll rack Greater Magic Weapon for someone if we're going to face something where we'll need that, or Magic Circle spells, or maybe Haste someone, and so on; but without a specific strategy that calls for certain spells, I just have him memorize the most generally useful offensive and utility spells I can.

--
heavier on offense than utility, usually; he's kind of a blaster mage
ryan

 

[eris404]

Consider the average wizard. What percentage of his spells are used for self preservation, versus spells used to buff allies, versus spells used to harm enemies?

How about the average cleric? Percentage of spells for self, spells for allies, spells on enemies? Sorcerer? Druid? Bard? Are rangers and paladins worth mentioning as spellcasters?

I play a bard/cleric in one campaign and I can say at least 90% of my character's spells (and abilities for that matter) are support for others. No matter what cleric spells she may prepare in advance, it's more likely she will swap it out for a healing spell at some point. I find that her bard spells usually are more useful outside of combat anyway.

But, I will say that I tend to play support characters rather than heavy hitters or blasters or whatever. I don't mind using the bard/cleric's spells to heal other characters and keep them in the game but I also don't think that, for example, every cleric needs to act as the medic for the party or that every wizard should be able to cast fireball.

What prompted me to ask this is a thread in the Rules forum about how a 4th-level wizard with 12 hp can survive. Several folks suggested a variety of protection spells. But how many spells can a mage or priest spend on himself and still be a productive member of the party?

That's a tough one. I don't think anyone would fault the player for trying to keep his character alive and let's face it, when the character has 12 hp, it's going to be tough. But, I think that there are other ways to go about this, such as enlisting or hiring a fighter-type to act as a protector or having the cleric cast spells like aid or shield other. I would hope that keeping each other alive would be the whole party's responsibility (if they are playing heroic characters, that is).