Spell Turning: Did it get the shaft?

[Merlion]

I've been thinking about something lately. Spell Turning sucks. The only thing thats deccent about it is its the sole defense arcane spellcasters have against death spells.
But think about it...in 2nd edition, Spell Turning could actually turn most spells. But now it only works against single target, non touch range, non attack rolll spells. Which leaves us with what? Mind control. Death spells. Baleful Polymorph. Magic Missile. Horrid Wilting. And it can only turn an absolute maximum of 10 levels of spells..average more like 5 or 6. Its entirely likely that it wont even turn a Finger of Death
Linked to this also is this: Should more spells be targeted? Shouldnt rays really be targeted, or at least turnable, since they are essentially targeting one single creature or object? They just happen to involve an attack roll.
But the central question is: should Spell Turning be made again as it was, able to turn most types of spells? Or perhaps reduced to 6th level since its range is really quite narrow?

 

[Pax]

How does 1d6+4 average 5 or 6? Just a wee bit of overstament there, eh? 1d6+4 averages out to 7.5 levels per casting.

And if you go beyond the PHB, there are a LOT more Targeted spells out there.

 

[Telperion]

I've been thinking about something lately. Spell Turning sucks. The only thing thats deccent about it is its the sole defense arcane spellcasters have against death spells.
But think about it...in 2nd edition, Spell Turning could actually turn most spells. But now it only works against single target, non touch range, non attack rolll spells. Which leaves us with what? Mind control. Death spells. Baleful Polymorph. Magic Missile. Horrid Wilting. And it can only turn an absolute maximum of 10 levels of spells..average more like 5 or 6. Its entirely likely that it wont even turn a Finger of Death
Linked to this also is this: Should more spells be targeted? Shouldnt rays really be targeted, or at least turnable, since they are essentially targeting one single creature or object? They just happen to involve an attack roll.
But the central question is: should Spell Turning be made again as it was, able to turn most types of spells? Or perhaps reduced to 6th level since its range is really quite narrow?

What about spells like Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser/Greater, Wall of Force, Counter Spelling stuff and so forth? There are a whole lot of things that an arcane caster can do to prevent spells from ever reaching him. IMO Spell Turning is just fine as it is. The ability to bounce some of your enemy's best attack spells right back at him is powerful. So, IMO, it should be restricted.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Its also alot of fun to watch that greater dispel bounce....

 

[Dark Dragon]

Indeed. It is a very nasty spell for the DM and not easy to get around it. Combine ST with Mirror Image and your wizzie has a good protection against ray and touch spells.

One of the wizards in my group is a wiz 14 / acm 5 and has specialized on counterspells and got Greater Dispelling and ST as spell-like abilities 2x/day (acm high arcana). Believe me, enemy spell casters get their Dispel Magic spells faster back than they like...

 

[Merlion]

How does 1d6+4 average 5 or 6? Just a wee bit of overstament there, eh? 1d6+4 averages out to 7.5 levels per casting.

Excuse me, I miscalculated. The point is, its still a 7th level spell called Spell Turning and it only affects about a quarter of the spells in the PH

What about spells like Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser/Greater, Wall of Force, Counter Spelling stuff and so forth? There are a whole lot of things that an arcane caster can do to prevent spells from ever reaching him.

What does this have to do with wether Spell Turning is powerful enough to be 7th level?

IMO Spell Turning is just fine as it is. The ability to bounce some of your enemy's best attack spells right back at him is powerful. So, IMO, it should be restricted.

But it cant bounce their best attack spells. It can bounce mind control spells, 3 save or die spells (that are especially devistating to mages, and the fact that Spell Turning is the only defense mages have against such spells is one of the only reasons it even gets used....of course I find that silly as well since mages should have Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity and Death ward), and 3 damaging dealing spells.
Being restricted is one thing. Being that restricted, as a 7th level spell, is another.

Indeed. It is a very nasty spell for the DM and not easy to get around it. Combine ST with Mirror Image and your wizzie has a good protection against ray and touch spells.

Spell Turning does not affect Ray or Touch spells. The fact that Mirror Image does (sort of) is irrelevent to this discussion.
Saying that other spells can be used to defened against the things Spell Turning doesnt work on really doesnt help an arguement that Spell Turning is fine as is.

One of the wizards in my group is a wiz 14 / acm 5 and has specialized on counterspells and got Greater Dispelling and ST as spell-like abilities 2x/day (acm high arcana). Believe me, enemy spell casters get their Dispel Magic spells faster back than they like...

What has any of this got to do with anything? It can turn Dispel Magic, and that can be useful. But if the only really useful things about it are turning Dispel Magic and Finger of Death, its not worth 7th level.

In previous editions, it turned most spells.(or more spells were turnable due to how they worked at the time). In 3rd edition, it affects a lot less spells...but its still the same level.

So as far as I'm concerned, as is, its 6th level. Or it needs one way or another, to be able to affect Rays and Touch spells.

 

[Merlion]

Indeed. It is a very nasty spell for the DM and not easy to get around it

How is it not easy to get around? Wail of the Banshee, Disintegrate, Circle of Death, Slay Living, Destruction are all Fort-save-or-die spells that Spell Turning doesnt affect.
Then theres Enervation, and Energy Drain.
And then theres damage. Delayed Blast Fireball, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm etc etc

 

[brehobit]

I've been thinking about something lately. Spell Turning sucks.

I have to agree. I've got a 2nd ed character who had just picked up a ring of spell turning before we changed over to 3rd edition. I don't think it has actually ever done anything to any spell...

 

[Dark Dragon]

How is it not easy to get around? Wail of the Banshee, Disintegrate, Circle of Death, Slay Living, Destruction are all Fort-save-or-die spells that Spell Turning doesnt affect.
Then theres Enervation, and Energy Drain.
And then theres damage. Delayed Blast Fireball, Prismatic Spray, Meteor Swarm etc etc

Ok, you want:
a) ST goes down to level 6, no further changes.
b) leave ST in level 7, but able to turn most spells.

Correct me if I'm wrong so far.

AFAIK there is no spell in 3.0/3.5 offering 100% protection against a wide array of spells. If this would be the case, it would imbalance the game. A serious wizard would cast it before entering a fight and re-cast it if ST expired during combat, especially when facing enemy spellcasters.
Second, if you allow a wizard or sorcerer to protect himself against death spells (you mentioned Slay Living, Finger of Death, Energy Drain,...) by changing ST, you give him access to powers that are normally used by clerics and druids (able to cast Deathward).

From my experience, ST is as good as it is. It can reflect only Magic Missiles, but it can also reflect an Implosion or a Horrid Wilting. The last two spells can kill an enemy caster outright. Quite good for a purely defensive ST, IMO.
If you want 100% protection, ask your friendly cleric and druid for spells

 

[Psiblade]

Spell turning is fine as is. No seventh level spell should be able to return 100% of other spells. Something that can do that should be 9th level at least. Rays already require attack rolls to hit. Use displacement, mirror image, greater invis, etc. to defeat that narrow catagory of spells. Just as their are many types of spells and attacks, there are many different types of defenses that can be prepared and used.

Think about it. Spell turning is a 300% increase in power for one round. You take away an action (spell) from the enemy. You gain an action in returning the spell. Then you still get your regular action. That is still very powerful.

-Psiblade