Spell Save DC Based on Character Level

[airwalkrr]

Here's just a random curious thought. A lot of abilities in the game have saving throw DCs that are based on half the character's caster level. Suppose spellcasting was the same way. The save DC for all a wizard's spells would be 10 + 1/2 wizard level + Int mod.

Pro: It would make lower level spells a bit more useful in the long run.
Con: It would make spellcasters a bit more powerful as a result.

So what do you think this change would be like? Can you imagine any places where this would be particularly problematic?

Edit: fixed a typo. oops!

 

[Kvantum]

I've used a version of that for Epic spellcasters - add one half their caster levels above 20 as a bonus to their spell DCs - makes spells with saving throws actually worth using again at high to Epic levels.

(As in the DC of a 24th level wizard's fireball would be 10 + 3 (spell level) +2 (1/2 his caster levels over 20) + Int mod)

 

[3d6]

I've been doing that in my game for 8 sessions now. I've not noticed a big difference. The PCs are only 7th level now, so I may see more effect later.

 

[Ilium]

airwalkrr: do you mean 10 + 1/2 wizard level + Int mod?

I think that's a fine idea. I assume you'd generalize it to

10 + 1/2 caster level + stat mod

Would you allow things that bump your caster level to apply? Such as some domain powers, or whatever.

 

[airwalkrr]

airwalkrr: do you mean 10 + 1/2 wizard level + Int mod?

I think that's a fine idea. I assume you'd generalize it to

10 + 1/2 caster level + stat mod

Would you allow things that bump your caster level to apply? Such as some domain powers, or whatever.

That's exactly what I meant. Sorry!

Things that raise your caster level do not count. Only things that raise your spellcasting level would, like prestige classes. So a wizard 6/fighter 4 with practiced spellcaster and Int of 16 would have DC 16 saves for his spells, since his fighter levels do not add to his spells per day, even though practiced spellcaster raises his caster level. A wizard 6/loremaster 4 with an Int of 16 however, would have DC 18 for his saves.

 

[erf_beto]

I've thought about this several times, so i'm curious about what will come up in this thread.

Well, here's some math:

spell	Min ability	Min	Min	CL/2	Fix
level	score	mod	DC	CL		DC
						
0	10	0	10	1	0	10
1	11	0	11	1	0	10
2	12	1	13	3	1	12
3	13	1	14	5	2	13
4	14	2	16	7	3	15
5	15	2	17	9	4	16
6	16	3	19	11	5	18
7	17	3	20	13	6	19
8	18	4	22	15	7	21
9	19	4	23	17	8	22

The 'Min DC' column represents the minimum DC for each spell level (acording to minimum ability scores and modifiers required to cast a spell of a particular level), and the 'Fix DC' is the one fixed by your aproach. Of course, those are minimum values, but in both scenarios, DCs are adjusted by high ability modifiers, so it evens out i guess.

I rounded 'half caster level' down, but if you round up you end up with (maximum) 'spell level', then the original and fixed DCs are the same.

What you propose is that every spell is cast with the highest DC you can get (that is, the DC of your highest spell level). That's ok for your highest spells (it's preety much the same), but the lower levels can get a huge boost: from a 14 DC you jump to a 22 DC, for 0 level spells. And that's only assuming a 17th level wizard, with a 19 Int - wich is hardly what we see.

At first, I thought "well, DCs are gonna be high, so you should increase everyone's save bonus". But that would mean you get to save against high level spells much easier - not to mention traps! - so thats not a good idea. You could cap the power of spells like in the spellpoint variant: they function basicaly as if you were the minimum level required to cast them, so even though the DCs would skyhigh, the end result would not - of course, some spells would be broken either way, you just cant foresee everything .

But maybe the spells werent designed to function that way. Wich is a shame anyway :\ 18th level wizards with Int 18 cast a 1st level spell preety much the same way a 1st level wizard with Int 18 does, and it doenst seem to matter the ammount of years the first spent studying that very spell, or magic itself... unless he has a feat for it.

cheers,
beto

 

[Ilium]

Yep, I think that's the point. Sleep cast by an archmage should work better than Sleep cast by a 1st-level newbie. In both cases, the power of the spell is limited (only affects a few Hit Dice) but when the archmage tries to put the town guard to sleep, they darn well go to sleep!

This IS a boost to spellcasters, but since the spells themselves often have limitations built in (like damage caps, etc.) it's still often necessary to use higher level spells to overcome level-appropriate challenges.

As far as balancing it goes...I'm not sure it's necessary. I don't think this will really make casters any more powerful, in the sense that they won't really affect level-appropriate encounters more than they do now, but it will make them completely dominant when facing low-CR encounters (as, perhaps, they should be). It would take playtesting to be sure.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I toyed around with that idea once. Instead I opted for 1d20+Spells Level+(Int, Cha or Wis, whatever you use). Nothing that extreme. But I like it.

 

[WhatGravitas]

As far as balancing it goes...I'm not sure it's necessary. I don't think this will really make casters any more powerful, in the sense that they won't really affect level-appropriate encounters more than they do now, but it will make them completely dominant when facing low-CR encounters (as, perhaps, they should be). It would take playtesting to be sure.

Perhaps it would be balanced as a feat, or even feat chain? Like this:

Potent Spell [Metamagic]
Your spells are more potent than usual.
Prerequisite: Heighten Spell, Spellcraft 9+ ranks
Benefit: The DC of a spell modified with Potent Spell is DC 10 + 1/3 appropriate spellcasting class + spellcasting ability-bonus, instead of DC 10 + spell's level + spellcasting ability bonus. A potent spell uses a slot of the same level as normal.

Potent Spell, Improved [Metamagic]
Your spells are more potent than usual.
Prerequisite: Heighten Spell, Potent Spell, Spellcraft 12+ ranks
Benefit: The DC of a spell modified with Potent Spell is DC 10 + 1/2 appropriate spellcasting class + spellcasting ability-bonus, instead of DC 10 + spell's level + spellcasting ability bonus. A potent spell uses a slot of the same level as normal.

These feats are powerful, but need a significant investment. Additionally, by introducing the first step, the modified spells will not eclipse the normal version very soon.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I think those feats are too costly. I like the idea of a feat being necessary though.

Potent Spell [General]
Your spells are more potent than usual.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st level spells, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefit: The DCs of all your spells are the higher of the DC generated normally or the DC generated by this forumula: 10 + 1/2 caster level + appropriate ability modifier.
Special: If you can cast spells from more than one class, this rule applies to each class separately and uses the respective caster level in each case.

Not every spellcaster will take this, as feats come at a premium. Since the DCs tend to be the same on both accounts, but differ most greatly for higher-level casters casting lower-level spells, this feat is particularly useful for high-level casters that expect to fact many lower-level opponents.

Dave