Spell Compendium Spell - Snake's Swiftness: Clarification needed.

[Mistah J]

If you read the snake's swiftness spell it says that it does not work on a target that has "already made an additional attack, due to a prior casting of this spell, from the haste spell, or from any other source..."


What other sources are there that qualify? A speed weapon obviously, I think, as that is based on haste. What about a monk's flurry of blows? or TWF? Technically, they grant "additional attacks" right? So anyone using them becomes ineligible for this spell if I understand it correctly.

I'm sure there are lots of other ways one could get additional attacks that negate this spell, so if you know of any off the top of your head... feel free to list them here.


Thanks

 

[DumbPaladin]

Things like flurry of blows, two-weapon fighting, and a 19th level Fighter getting 4 attacks due to his BAB all take place as part of a full-round attack action, so everything that happens during it is part of that ONE attack action.

What this spell prevents from happening is the granting of ANOTHER attack action. There aren't too many spells that do this -- haste & snake's swiftness are the only two that come to mind, although the Factotum has an ability to generate another standard action by spending Inspiration Points ... and I suspect most DMs would say that you could not combine that Factotum ability and snake's swiftness.

 

[Runestar]

The barb's whirling frenzy (variant from UA)? Frenzied barb's bonus attack from frenzying?

There are some white raven maneuvers in tome of battle which can grant extra attacks, such as white raven tactics and flanking maneuver.

Too broad, IMO, which can potentially make this spell less useful, though it seems like a fairly strong spell, especially if cast by a druid. Perhaps we can rule that this extra attack is treated as haste for purposes of determining how it interacts?

So it would not be disabled by TWFing/flurry (since these normally stack with haste), but it would not work with frenzy (which explicitly states it does not stack with haste).

Fair enough?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd just take it as explictly written (haste and snake's swiftness), and nothing more. It's not an overpowered spell, even at the lower level a druid gets it.

"So it would not be disabled by TWFing/flurry (since these normally stack with haste), but it would not work with frenzy (which explicitly states it does not stack with haste)."

Whirling Frenzy does stack with haste. Otherwise, I think this is fair.
Class Feature Variants :: d20srd.org
"While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action. "

Whirling Frenzy stacks with Haste just as easily as TWF, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, or any other "-2 to all attacks; +1 attack" abilities.

 

[Empirate]

Things like flurry of blows, two-weapon fighting, and a 19th level Fighter getting 4 attacks due to his BAB all take place as part of a full-round attack action, so everything that happens during it is part of that ONE attack action.

What this spell prevents from happening is the granting of ANOTHER attack action. There aren't too many spells that do this -- haste & snake's swiftness are the only two that come to mind, although the Factotum has an ability to generate another standard action by spending Inspiration Points ... and I suspect most DMs would say that you could not combine that Factotum ability and snake's swiftness.

This is misleading, I believe. The extra attack gained by a Haste spell is also part of the same full attack. Neither Haste nor Snake's Swiftness grant an extra attack action (which would be a standard action), they only grant the ability to make one extra attack as part of a full attack action.

Note that "an attack" and "an attack action" are not the same game concept. Rather, what "an attack" signifies is the ability to deal your normal damage once or initiate a special effect like disarming etc. An "attack action" is a way to use your standard action for the turn to take "an attack". An attack action is not the only way to take an attack. With an AoO, you even get to make an attack without taking an action.

A "full attack action", therefore, is a way to use a full-round action to generate one or more attacks, the exact number depending on your number of natural attacks, your BAB, and lots of other things, like Flurry, TWF, Speed enchanted weapons, Whirling Frenzy etc. Haste and Snake's Swiftness are among these "other things". A strict interpretation would ensure Snake's Swiftness does not stack with any of these "other things". As a lenient DM I would probably separate "magical" effects from "mundane" effects to make Snake's Swiftness a little more universally applicable - but this would probably generate lots of headache situtations later on.


Note that Sakkratar's Triple Strike from Lost Empires of Faerûn works much like Snake's Swiftness on (literal) speed: it gives two extra attacks in a full attack and also enchants your weapon. As it has a duration of 1 round, there's nothing stopping you from using Extend Spell, as well.

 

[Runestar]

Whirling Frenzy does stack with haste. Otherwise, I think this is fair.

I was actually referring to the frenzied berserker's frenzy, whose extra attack does not stack with haste. Though you are right in that I originally thought that whirling frenzy (the UA variant) did not stack either.

 

[Dross]

I would tend to rule based on the premise:
Extra attacks based from outside sources don't stack: thus haste, a speed weapon, snake swiftness don't stack.
Extra attacks based on internal sources: high BAB, flurry of blows, 2-wpn fighting etc can stack with one outside source for an extra attack.

And specific overrules the general does/does not stack rules.

I would not get too hung up on the fact that the Haste spell is a requirement for a speed weapon. It does not universally follow that the source spell cannot stack with an item made with the source spell.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Note that "an attack" and "an attack action" are not the same game concept.

[snip]
A strict interpretation would ensure Snake's Swiftness does not stack with any of these "other things". As a lenient DM I would probably separate "magical" effects from "mundane" effects to make Snake's Swiftness a little more universally applicable - but this would probably generate lots of headache situtations later on.

I agree -- it could cause some headaches. But you have a good point. It definitely will depend on how strictly a DM interprets the wording of the spell.

But there really aren't too many ways to "make an additional attack", if we're determining that things like having a high BAB aren't included.