D&D 5E Spell balance

[GMforPowergamers]

So wizards get LOTs of spells over the level, but is any 1 spell really a problem? I mean if you didn't have a whole pyramid of spells would powerful spells given out as spell like abilities really break anything?

Once in 3e and again 2 campaigns back here in 5e I had players that had Wish 1/day and for the most part it was just used to shadow magic things people didn't have.

So I was imagining... if you gave a rogue Invisibility 2/per short rest no other spells, just that, would that even make an difference really?


Then I got thinking about time stop. I imagined giving a player (Non caster): spend a HD to cast time stop


is there a spell, any level that by itself would dramatically change the course of play?

 

[Bacon Bits]

I'm not entirely sure what your question is.

Movement and travel spells are usually a problem, in that the game expects the PCs not to have them at low level and to have them at high level. Teleport, Fly, Plane Shift, etc. Unlimited access to Disintegrate or similar effects can be a problem, since the PCs can eliminate nearly all non-creature obstacles easily. Summoning and Polymorph effects can also cause problems if you have access to things significantly more powerful than you. High power healing or ressurection magic can make combat inconsequential. Forcecage and Wall of Force can simlarly warp nearly any encounter.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

IMO, as long as the use is limited and the spell is appropriate for the level, it’s no different from having a scroll or wand.

 

[CapnZapp]

is there a spell, any level that by itself would dramatically change the course of play?

yes

 

[5ekyu]

yes

Ditto this.

But the question is impossible to answer beyond that cuz of the Shroedinger's Checkbook issue.

Schroedinger's Checkbook
What a given effect or ability is worth is not measurable or determinable without opening the scenario box and looking at the situation and the needs of that situation.

I once saw a barapbarian hold a demon slaying arrow for 15 levels of a campaign and only use it in the final campaign ending battle scene after seeing the ultimate bad was indeed a demon. It was glorious and the value of that arrow immeasurable at that moment.

 

[Pauln6]

I'm confused by scroll use. In 3e characters had unlimited spell scrolls that skewed spell casting ability. In the playtest, they tweaked it so that you had yo use a spell slot to use a scroll, so they gave breadth but not increased power. That balance seems to have been removed in the actual game but I haven't seen anybody complaining about scrolls in 5e.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm not entirely sure what your question is.

what I mean is...what spell could be broken if given by itself to a non spell caster... so if given X spell (where X can be any 1 spell of your choice) Y number of times perday would it make the game harder to play... Y and X are both variables I am asking you to fill in. I gave some examples.

Movement and travel spells are usually a problem, in that the game expects the PCs not to have them at low level and to have them at high level. Teleport, Fly, Plane Shift, etc.

is it though? I mean yea it changes the game a bit...but it just takes the travel part and makes it easier.


lets try some examples:

1)Dr Strange sling rings... a group of PCs, lets say a Monk(Kensi), a Fighter (Battle master), and 2 Rogues (Assassin, and swashbuckler) at level 4ish find an ancient monastery and spend 2 years training with the ancient master who teaches them to use Sling Rings... At will they can misty step, they can spend a hit die to use the Arcane Portal spell as an action, and they can 1/short rest use the Teleport Circle spell... that would really just change how easy movement is...but would it break the game?


or even less breaking...


2) Portal Masters... a group of say a Barbarian 2 Fighters, and a rogue all at level 2 (so no sub classes yet) gain a spark of a soul shared between them...and they can as a shared resource plane shift 3/long rest... other then running away that doesn't really change much. It's too random of a teleport.

Unlimited access to Disintegrate or similar effects can be a problem, since the PCs can eliminate nearly all non-creature obstacles easily.

that's a good one, Disintegrate at will is a bit much... but what about 1/short rest?

Summoning and Polymorph effects can also cause problems if you have access to things significantly more powerful than you.

for the most part those spells are limited enough that if you get them even close to when a spell caster COULD have it would it?

High power healing or ressurection magic can make combat inconsequential.

this one is a good one, I often limit bringing the dead back...but I have seen games (High level ones) where those spells are thrown around without making combat inconsequential... heck in 3.5 I saw a Ranger/Cleric that prepped every spell of 5th+ as raises or higher and used them multi times... it was weird but it was 3.5 so there was a lot weird about that one.

Forcecage and Wall of Force can similarly warp nearly any encounter.

yea...save or suck spells...Hold person, tasha's laugh are both low level and spamable as is

yes

could you elaborate?

Ditto this.

But the question is impossible to answer beyond that cuz of the Shroedinger's Checkbook issue.

Schroedinger's Checkbook
What a given effect or ability is worth is not measurable or determinable without opening the scenario box and looking at the situation and the needs of that situation.

I once saw a barapbarian hold a demon slaying arrow for 15 levels of a campaign and only use it in the final campaign ending battle scene after seeing the ultimate bad was indeed a demon. It was glorious and the value of that arrow immeasurable at that moment.

OK, so go into examples...good and bad that is half the fun of this type of thread...write some checks

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Most spells* are fairly well-balanced for their level, so it shouldn't completely wreck the game if you allow other classes to cast them, aside from the fact that you're granting extra resources to the party. If the rogue can cast Invisibility twice per short rest, then that might save a few spell slots that the wizard can spend on Shield or something.

Some spells can dramatically alter the game by their presence: Tiny Hut, Revivify, Teleport, and a few others. They're only impressive because they do unique things that nothing else can match, though. As long as the wizard or cleric has access to these spells, then giving them to someone else would be redundant. If a spell was so powerful that it would wreck the game for a rogue to have it, then it would already wreck the game when the wizard or cleric had it.


*Healing Spirit is objectively overpowered by any metric, but that's the exception. It's already broken while Druids have it, and allowing anyone else to have it would compound the issue.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Most spells* are fairly well-balanced for their level, so it shouldn't completely wreck the game if you allow other classes to cast them, aside from the fact that you're granting extra resources to the party. If the rogue can cast Invisibility twice per short rest, then that might save a few spell slots that the wizard can spend on Shield or something.

Some spells can dramatically alter the game by their presence: Tiny Hut, Revivify, Teleport, and a few others. They're only impressive because they do unique things that nothing else can match, though. As long as the wizard or cleric has access to these spells, then giving them to someone else would be redundant. If a spell was so powerful that it would wreck the game for a rogue to have it, then it would already wreck the game when the wizard or cleric had it.


*Healing Spirit is objectively overpowered by any metric, but that's the exception. It's already broken while Druids have it, and allowing anyone else to have it would compound the issue.

yea, that is what I was thinking When I started this. I mean I am getting warmed up to run a non spell caster campaign and have been toying with the idea of giving a few spell like abilities out as treasure...and I don't think most spells will be a problem.

 

[jmartkdr]

There are a lot of spells that would be crazy powerful at-will, but very few if any that would be a problem if you could only cast them a couple times per day, and no sooner than a full caster could get them. Some of the spells that change logistics (ie spells that create shelter or make travel easier) need a little more thought, since they remove an entire challenge type - but at some point you'll probably decide to ignore that kind of challenge anyways, and this is an issue when no houserules are in play.

Honestly I'd be more worried about making sure no one gets stuck with a crappy bonus spell that doesn't work out like they thought it would.