Speed Enchantment and Two Weapon Fighting

[Thistleknot]

If someone has the Speed enchantment on their primary hand and off hand weapon, do they get an extra attack with each of the weapons?

I know that it doesn't stack with Haste, but do you get 2 extra attacks by putting them on separate weapons? The penalty for wielding 2 weapons would still apply here despite the fact that the enchantment says that you get an extra attack at the character's highest BAB, right?

Does this same logic apply in instances where they would normally only get one attack, such as moving more than 5 feet and attacking, like Haste? And do these extra attacks also apply during, say, Spring Attack?

Would such a person always have at least 3 attacks in any given situation (One standard, plus 2 for each of the Speed enchantment attacks)? My reaction just looking at the basic rules says that it should.

I was constructing an NPC Rogue/Assassin that would wield short swords each with the Speed Enchantment, and I wanted to make sure that I was using the appropriate interpretation of the Speed enchantment rules. It would suck to shaft my players because I misinterpreted rules.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Astlin]

IIRC...If you swing a speed weapon, you get another attack with it.
If you have one in your off hand, you have to swing your off hand weapon (ie full attack) in order to get the benefit.

IMO speed is way too expensive to be putting on an off hand weapon.


Astlin

 

[comrade raoul]

This has been a hotly debated topic in the past. I think the stacking rules between speed weapons and haste are pretty clunky, myself, but I suppose they're for the best. But the rules themselves aren't very detailed (the SRD tells us only that a "weapon of speed allows the wielder one single extra attack each round at his highest bonus. It is not cumulative with haste. The extra attack must be with this weapon, not with some other weapon. The weapon does not grant the benefits of a haste spell, so an additional partial action is not what is granted, simply an extra single attack with this weapon.") This leaves a lot of room for confusion and interpretation, and I think it's up to the DM to rule what she finds fair and plausible. Personally, I'd rule:

1. If a character wields a speed weapon, he may make one additional attack, at his highest attack bonus, with it at any point during his action (including during a spring attack).
2. The above applies for each speed weapon a character wields. Two speed weapons yields two attacks.
3. If a character makes one or more additional attacks due to speed weapons, he may not take an additional partial action due to haste.

It's even harder to say whether a character wielding two speed weapons suffers two-weapon fighting penalties if his only off-hand attack is made is his extra attack due to his speed weapon. The rules just aren't clear about this. Here (again, just going by what seems to me to be fair and intuitive), I'd say that a a character may only take advantage of a speed weapon's extra attack when also attacking with it normally. This means that you'd get your extra attack with your off-hand weapon of speed only when you could bring both weapons to bear -- that is, only when taking a full attack action. So you'd apply the two-weapon fighting penalties as normal, and would only get more than two attacks when taking a full attack action.

 

[IceBear]

OMG!!! NOT THIS QUESTION AGAIN!!!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep Caliban and kreynolds out of here (though, they do know the answer)

IceBear

 

[Zerovoid]

I would say that Speed weapons can't be used in this way. If two things both cannot stack with a third thing, then they shouldn't be able to stack with each other, because all three must be the same type of bonus, even if that bonus is not explicitly given an identifier.

By this interpretation, you also couldn't use a Speed weapon with a Frenzied Berserker's extra attack ability.

 

[kreynolds]

If someone has the Speed enchantment on their primary hand and off hand weapon, do they get an extra attack with each of the weapons?

Yes.

I know that it doesn't stack with Haste, but do you get 2 extra attacks by putting them on separate weapons?

Yes.

The penalty for wielding 2 weapons would still apply here despite the fact that the enchantment says that you get an extra attack at the character's highest BAB, right?

Yes.

Does this same logic apply in instances where they would normally only get one attack, such as moving more than 5 feet and attacking, like Haste? And do these extra attacks also apply during, say, Spring Attack?

You get the extra attack any time you use an attack action.

Would such a person always have at least 3 attacks in any given situation (One standard, plus 2 for each of the Speed enchantment attacks)?

If they take a full attack action, they get 2. If they take a standard attack action, which only allows one attack with your primary hand, they would get only one extra attack with their primary hand.

 

[kreynolds]

I would say that Speed weapons can't be used in this way.

You'd be wrong. Speed weapons were designed to work with each other, but nothing else. As far as I know, they don't stack with any haste-like effects at all.

 

[kreynolds]

Keep Caliban and kreynolds out of here (though, they do know the answer)

Sorry. I couldn't resist.

 

[mikebr99]

You'd be wrong. Speed weapons were designed to work with each other, but nothing else. As far as I know, they don't stack with any haste-like effects at all.

Go k go...

go k go...


go k go...

 

[Ristamar]

Just to top it off, here's an old, old, old reply from the Skipster:

What does "does not stack with" mean in regards to haste and the speed enchantment?

It means if you have a speed weapon and you're hasted, you get the extra attack from the weapon, or the extra action from the haste effect, not both.

Haste allows for an extra partial action. Speed gives you an extra attack with that weapon every round.

Does that mean that using a speed weapon means you don't get the extra action?

Yes.

Does it mean that taking a partial action prevents you from using the speed weapon?

Yes.

Or does it mean that you can't use speed weapon during a haste partial action but you can during the standard or full-round action?

No.

It seems the most logical interpretation is that you can't use a speed weapon to get one more attack during a haste partial, but you can get 1 extra attack from speed and one extra attack from haste in the same round. Is this correct?

No.

Skip Williams
RPG R&D