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Special Conversion Thread: Lycanthropes and their ilk
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<blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 8082642" data-attributes="member: 57383"><p>Updating <a href="https://enworld.org/index.php?posts/8006632" target="_blank"><strong><s><span style="color: purple">Weredragon</span></s> Drakanthrope Working Draft</strong></a> with the new name.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fine by me!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So are you suggesting we just use base Wyrmling Lycanthrope-template style adjustments for ALL sizes of true dragon based Drakanthrope?</p><p></p><p>I tried that, but it makes particularly big or small Drakanthropes have Hit Dice that seemed unbalanced compared to regular monster dragons.</p><p></p><p>Lets say we have an ordinary Huge Giant such as a Cloud Giant. The standard Wyrmling True Dragons range from 3 HD (White Dragon) to 8 HD (Gold Dragon), so if we use Wyrmling-only HD a Cloud Giant Drakanthrope has Hit Dice 17d8+3d12 to 17d8+8d12 if it's one of the SRD True Dragons.</p><p></p><p>So from 20 HD to 25 HD, which is actually within the Hit Dice for a Huge SRD True Dragon, which can range from 19d12 (Young Adult Red) to 32d12 (Ancient Copper).</p><p></p><p>The problem is we're allowing non-true dragon Drakanthropes such as a Cloud Giant Dragon Turtle Drakanthrope which would have Hit Dice 17d8+12d8, considerably more than a Cloud Giant Gold Weredragon. As in 4 dragon HD more. Plus there are regular dragons of Huge size with way more HD than a Dragon Turtle (the SRD Dragon Turtle is a tad underpowered, which is why I did a Cleon Special). A Cloud Giant Hellfire Werewyrm for example (3E <em>MMII's</em> Hellfire Wire) would have Hit Dice 17d8+23d12. Turning to the CC for an example, a Cloud Giant Swamp Wyrm Drakanthrope would have Hit Dice 17d8+18d12.</p><p></p><p>I'd like the True Dragon drakanthropes to have HD comparable to or better than the ordinary monster drakanthropes. True Dragons are supposed to be among the toughest creatures alive, so having their less noteworthy kin make tougher pseudo-lycanthropes sits poorly with me.</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately the Lycanthrope template's approach of "just add the Hit Dice together" inescapably ends up with creatures with excessive HD when a high-HD giant is combined with a high-HD base "beast". Standard lycanthropes can be extremely meaty such as wereelephants and some Dire Animal Lycanthropes (a dire werehippo giant can have ridiculous HD <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" />). Giving them Dragon Hit Dice instead obviously just makes it more extreme. Imagine how many Hit Dice and Hit Points a Mountain Giant Drakanthrope could have!</p><p></p><p>The smaller sizes seem unlikely to be an issue, since I don't think any official Humanoid type creatures less than Small size. The Tibbit is a Tiny Humanoid when in its house cat alternative form, but that doesn't seem germane since their "default shape" is Small.</p><p></p><p>As a thought experiment, imagine if a Grig was a Humanoid instead of a Fey: A Grig Drakanthrope with all of the Wyrmling's HD would have Hit Dice ½d6+3d12 at a minimum (for a White Dragon Grig Weredragon) up to ½d6+7d12 for a Silver Weredragon. Contrariwise a Pseudodragon Grig Weredragon would have Hit Dice ½d6+2d12.</p><p></p><p>The "<strong>Half Wyrmling's Hit Dice</strong>" scheme for Tiny Drakanthropes would give a Grig "True" Weredragon Hit Dice of ½d6+1d12 to ½d6+4d12 which is more on par with a standard monster dragon of that size such as the aforementioned Pseudodragon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the natural armour and ability modifiers can be discussed separately, to prevent this thread getting even more elaborate.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cleon, post: 8082642, member: 57383"] Updating [URL='https://enworld.org/index.php?posts/8006632'][B][S][COLOR=purple]Weredragon[/COLOR][/S] Drakanthrope Working Draft[/B][/URL] with the new name. Fine by me! So are you suggesting we just use base Wyrmling Lycanthrope-template style adjustments for ALL sizes of true dragon based Drakanthrope? I tried that, but it makes particularly big or small Drakanthropes have Hit Dice that seemed unbalanced compared to regular monster dragons. Lets say we have an ordinary Huge Giant such as a Cloud Giant. The standard Wyrmling True Dragons range from 3 HD (White Dragon) to 8 HD (Gold Dragon), so if we use Wyrmling-only HD a Cloud Giant Drakanthrope has Hit Dice 17d8+3d12 to 17d8+8d12 if it's one of the SRD True Dragons. So from 20 HD to 25 HD, which is actually within the Hit Dice for a Huge SRD True Dragon, which can range from 19d12 (Young Adult Red) to 32d12 (Ancient Copper). The problem is we're allowing non-true dragon Drakanthropes such as a Cloud Giant Dragon Turtle Drakanthrope which would have Hit Dice 17d8+12d8, considerably more than a Cloud Giant Gold Weredragon. As in 4 dragon HD more. Plus there are regular dragons of Huge size with way more HD than a Dragon Turtle (the SRD Dragon Turtle is a tad underpowered, which is why I did a Cleon Special). A Cloud Giant Hellfire Werewyrm for example (3E [I]MMII's[/I] Hellfire Wire) would have Hit Dice 17d8+23d12. Turning to the CC for an example, a Cloud Giant Swamp Wyrm Drakanthrope would have Hit Dice 17d8+18d12. I'd like the True Dragon drakanthropes to have HD comparable to or better than the ordinary monster drakanthropes. True Dragons are supposed to be among the toughest creatures alive, so having their less noteworthy kin make tougher pseudo-lycanthropes sits poorly with me. Unfortunately the Lycanthrope template's approach of "just add the Hit Dice together" inescapably ends up with creatures with excessive HD when a high-HD giant is combined with a high-HD base "beast". Standard lycanthropes can be extremely meaty such as wereelephants and some Dire Animal Lycanthropes (a dire werehippo giant can have ridiculous HD :p). Giving them Dragon Hit Dice instead obviously just makes it more extreme. Imagine how many Hit Dice and Hit Points a Mountain Giant Drakanthrope could have! The smaller sizes seem unlikely to be an issue, since I don't think any official Humanoid type creatures less than Small size. The Tibbit is a Tiny Humanoid when in its house cat alternative form, but that doesn't seem germane since their "default shape" is Small. As a thought experiment, imagine if a Grig was a Humanoid instead of a Fey: A Grig Drakanthrope with all of the Wyrmling's HD would have Hit Dice ½d6+3d12 at a minimum (for a White Dragon Grig Weredragon) up to ½d6+7d12 for a Silver Weredragon. Contrariwise a Pseudodragon Grig Weredragon would have Hit Dice ½d6+2d12. The "[B]Half Wyrmling's Hit Dice[/B]" scheme for Tiny Drakanthropes would give a Grig "True" Weredragon Hit Dice of ½d6+1d12 to ½d6+4d12 which is more on par with a standard monster dragon of that size such as the aforementioned Pseudodragon. I think the natural armour and ability modifiers can be discussed separately, to prevent this thread getting even more elaborate. [/QUOTE]
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