So tell me what is so special about Star Wars Saga Edition?

[Calico_Jack73]

I've seen posts that state that WOTC should incorporate some of the elements of SWSE into D&D 4E. I haven't had a chance to look through the new edition of Star Wars. Tell me, what is so great about it? What changes did they make between it and the Revised Edition. What do you want to see in 4R?

 

[amethal]

I've seen posts that state that WOTC should incorporate some of the elements of SWSE into D&D 4E. I haven't had a chance to look through the new edition of Star Wars. Tell me, what is so great about it? What changes did they make between it and the Revised Edition. What do you want to see in 4R?

The changes are easy enough.

Adoption of d20 Modern talent trees

Only 5 classes

Pretty much no class abilities - choose a talent at odd levels, choose a bonus feat at even levels

No skill points - choose a set number of "trained" skills from you class list, add half your level to skill rolls, with a +5 bonus if its a "trained" skill (and some skills can't be used untrained at all)

The "condition track" where taking damage can lead to penalties (gross over simplification!)

Triple hit points at first level (although Con bonuses / penalties aren't tripled), although this is pretty much setting specific given the amount of damage a standard blaster pistol can do

A "use the force" skill, and a limited number of force powers known (which is feat based so independent of class - you can have soldiers with force powers and jedi without if you want)

Force powers can (normally) be used only once per encounter.

Whats good
This is the hard part.

I love the Saga rules as written, but I haven't had a chance to play test them.

Most of it isn't suitable for D&D - the Force ain't magic

I love the way the talent trees give Star Wars characters so much flexibility, but if you use them to replace class abilities then I don't think its D&D any more.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Skills are handled in a completely different way: characters get 1/2 their level as a bonus to all skills, and are either Trained (+5) or Trained and Focused (+10) in any given skill. This allows all mid- to high-level characters to be competent enough to participate in a given activity, such as piloting fighter craft, riding horses or swimming. Ironically, it ALSO solves the problem of low-level characters being outright incompetent, especially as it concerns 'Expert' type NPCs.

Skills are also condensed somewhat (Persuasion replaces Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate, Stealth replaces Hide/Move Silently, etc.).

Many of the fiddly combat actions are broken down into smaller and/or simpler tasks. Charge becomes a standard action and Withdraw a move action, Grappling is simplified considerably, the 5 ft. step is removed, etc.

Heroic characters begin with significantly greater 1st level hit points, removing the issue of first level characters dying like mooks in any reasonably challenging fight and also making Constitution less of a god-stat.

The active character always rolls. Instead of AC and saves, characters have Fort, Ref and Will Defenses, which are essentially ACs for the three save types (Reflex Defense also stands in for AC).

Instead of lots of small, stacking or non-stacking bonuses to rolls, most special benefits (from racial abilities, for example) come in the form of rerolls.

The Force system is a highly effective fusion of encounter-based and skill-based magic systems that allows any character to become a powerful 'spellcaster' if he chooses, without eclipsing the other character options.

Force Points are included from the outset and represent a somewhat more powerful narrative mechanic than, say, Eberron's implementation of action points.

 

[pawsplay]

Classes are distinctive but not limited.
Characters are durable but not unbalanced.
Number of rolls vastly reduced.
Backwards compatibility maintained where possible, ruthlessly extracted when it gets in the way.
Geared toward playing Star Wars and nothing else.
Use of three defenses, while anticipated by the LOTR game, is well done.
Gets to the point, in almost every single way.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

MEM has some good input.

I'd like to add, to his list ...

Multiclassing is so easy, even my grandmother could do it! Honestly, the Saga Devs have gone almost as far away from the D&D-class-as-job standard as you can go without turning into a classless system. Of the example [movie] characters given, only 1 - Lando - isn't multiclassed. This is a good thing (a few naysayers aside)! Let your PCs multiclass freely. And yet ...

Single class characters still work! You can make a perfectly serviceable, non-underpowered character by just staying in the same base class from 1-20. You'll have more bonus feats than you know what to do with. Speaking of which ...

More feats! Feats are one of the great additions of the 3.X system, but the problem is that characters just never really get enough of them. Saga Ed. base classes grant a bonus feat from a thematically appropriate list evey even level. Now, you can realistically take feats to specialize in more than one particular weapon type.

Talent trees! Base classes don't really have class features anymore (as in, at Rogue 2 you gain Uncanny Dodge). Instead, each class has access to a suite of Talent Trees, specific to each class. This, together with the larger number of bonus feats granted, makes it more-likely than D&D that a particular Scoundrel 3 will look almost nothing like another Scoundrel 3: the first is dedicated to getting in the first shot, while the second is a hard-core Slicer.

[EDIT! Also!]

Jedi are balanced! The devs made possibly the greatest single change in philosophy ever when they started developing this game. They basically built the game such that heroes are much, much better at "the world" than non-heroes, but that heroes are roughly in-line with each other. Sure, every important Jedi we see in the movies kicks major butt, but that's because they're all heroes and, when you come right down to it, they don't kick more butt than Han, Jango, or Leia.

The Nonheroic Class. Similar to the above, there's the nonheroic class for "everyone else" in the universe (and, yes, you can even build a serviceable "background" Jedi Master, like the three who got punked by Palpatine, using the nonheroic class). It's got a decent BAB progression and flexible skill and proficiency assignment, but lousy Hit Points. This means that stormtroopers, clone troopers, and battle droids can hit things and be a menace in combat (for at least a little while) but that a single solid hit from a hero's weapon will take them out of the fight - just like Star Wars!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Expanding on the Jedi are balanced bit.

At least from what I've seen so far, it is very, very hard to make an ineffective character in Star Wars Saga. No matter what combination of classes you take, or what race/class mix you choose, or what stats you prioritize, you will usually be at least reasonably competent at basic adventuring tasks, and can either be solid across the board or really good at a certain task.

It's also considerably harder to be really, really effective relative to other characters. Not impossible, but much more difficult than in, say, PHB-only D&D.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've seen posts that state that WOTC should incorporate some of the elements of SWSE into D&D 4E. I haven't had a chance to look through the new edition of Star Wars. Tell me, what is so great about it? What changes did they make between it and the Revised Edition. What do you want to see in 4R?

This is a GM-heavy board. The skills system, I think, is great for GMs. NPCs can be made very quickly. Players might not like it so much. I think the NPC system also works because it uses the same rules that PCs use. The only other system I've seen where NPCs can be made so quickly and still work right is Iron Heroes; there, NPCs use mostly the same rules (some in fact use the exact same rules) but are often less flexible in terms of "design"; I think IH also strikes the right balance (a little bit easier to use, a bit less flexible).

Also, talents. I love them. It results in flexible character concepts. In some cases the talents are designed better than in d20 Modern. I like how they split up "Born Leader" and "Coordinate". I'm using "Born Leader" as a talent in d20 Modern now, generally for mob bosses and military officer types, while "Coordinate" works better for businessmen and masterminds. (Note: Born Leader gives allies +1 to hit, Coordinate gives big bonuses to aid another and almost simulates a competent office leader; in d20 Modern, Coordinate does both but the duration is so short that its useless outside of combat).

I like the bonus damage based on level. It's great for pistol-using characters (d20 Modern sorely needs something like that) and anyone else who uses light weapons. (D20 Modern has three helpings of melee smash, so melee wasn't so bad there.)

I like the removal of iterative attacks. They got useless, especially in d20 Modern. I don't like how two-weapon fighting was handled in most ways, although I don't mind that you need several levels before you can be good at it; it's not a beginner ability. I like the (slight) change in the withdraw action.

I like the new autofire rules, but don't like the save-as-Defense rule in general and think the Cover Fire talent rules suck. (Can you even use cover fire without the talent? I didn't see that in the combat rules section.)

I'm a bit more mixed on some of the other decisions. I like more hit points at 1st-level, but maybe 3x was too much; I dunno. There are no mages in Star Wars; in DnD triple hit points for 1st-level mages would be kind of nice Also, I've only read the condition summary rules once but they looked broken to me. Can a 1st-level character be forced to make a Fort save because they took six damage from a knife? (I think the triggering damage is Fort save bonus, which is basically Con bonus + level for most characters... but maybe you're supposed to add ten to that.)

Personally I find it has lots of house rules that can be poached for d20 Modern. I think a lot of the ideas could also make their way into 4e but should stay out of 3e.

 

[Tonguez]

More feats! Feats are one of the great additions of the 3.X system, but the problem is that characters just never really get enough of them. Saga Ed. base classes grant a bonus feat from a thematically appropriate list evey even level. Now, you can realistically take feats to specialize in more than one particular weapon type.

Talent trees! Base classes don't really have class features anymore (as in, at Rogue 2 you gain Uncanny Dodge). Instead, each class has access to a suite of Talent Trees, specific to each class. This, together with the larger number of bonus feats granted, makes it more-likely than D&D that a particular Scoundrel 3 will look almost nothing like another Scoundrel 3: the first is dedicated to getting in the first shot, while the second is a hard-core Slicer.

This is great I've not looked at SWSaga but have been saying for a long time that DnD should go with a Feats and Talents system for character creation so I love that they've finally listened to me.

Could force powers be used as a skillbased magic system?

Anyone thinking of using SWSaga for a DnD type fantasy setting (as opposed to a Star Wars fantasy setting)

another aside would the rules allow me to run He-Man and the Masters of the Universe?

 

[sukael]

I think the triggering damage is Fort save bonus, which is basically Con bonus + level for most characters...

There are no "saves" in SWSE. There are only defenses, which are 10 + heroic level + stat bonus + class bonus. Base Threshold is equal to your Fortitude defense.

 

[sukael]

Could force powers be used as a skillbased magic system?

Yes, if you're willing to adapt spells to it.