D&D 5E SKT: Battle with Iymrith at the Eye of the All Father, what went wrong... (Spoilers)

[robus]

So I just ran the part of the Oracle chapter where Iymrith makes and appearance and takes on the PCs and their giant ally (in my case Blagothkus, for reasons). All well and good until she uses her frightful presence and Blagothkus doesn't make his save (not surprising because it's DC 20! - the PCs do because they have some garlands from an earlier encounter in ToD into which I'm merging SKT, see Blagothkus above).

Anyway - this totally derailed the planned epic showdown between Blagothkus and Iymrith during which they're supposed to bring down the temple (and the PCs escape with cuts and bruises).

Where we ended up is Blagothkus is being chased in circles in the dining hall by Iymrith (continuing to fail his saves) while the PCs are outside deciding what to do (the cooler heads say get out, the heroically foolish heads say "No we must save Blagothkus"! ). That was the cliffhanger ending which was at least exciting for the players

I think I know how I'm going to get myself out of this next time but I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on how GMs are supposed to avoid that kind of sticky situation. The Frightening Presence save is DC 20!

Now of course she could not have used that action (and that would have been smart on my part) but in the moment it's tough to remember which actions are allowed and which not.

I guess this is mostly a warning - don't let Iymrith get out of hand

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Harshnag facing Iymrith is supposed to be more or less a cut scene. I'm not sure how a DM NPC can fail a save in what should be a scripted event. The giant should say, "Flee, you fools!", heft his axe and wade into battle with the dragon while the players make a hasty escape. If the players decide to stick around and help out their giant buddy then sure, feel free to play him accurately and (probably) kick the PCs' butts.

 

[robus]

Harshnag facing Iymrith is supposed to be more or less a cut scene. I'm not sure how a DM NPC can fail a save in what should be a scripted event. The giant should say, "Flee, you fools!", heft his axe and wade into battle with the dragon while the players make a hasty escape. If the players decide to stick around and help out their giant buddy then sure, feel free to play him accurately and (probably) kick the PCs' butts.

Yeah - in hindsight that's how I should have run it. Unfortunately I had Iymrith show up at the end of a regular combat encounter so switching from the combat system back to narrative felt unnatural at the time. But not doing it got me in trouble.

 

[Prakriti]

I agree with Horus. The encounter is supposed to be a cut-scene. The outcome is already determined, so there's no need to roll for anything. If your players are trying to fight Iymrith, then follow the book's advice: have Harshnag throw the characters out the door and slam it shut behind them. It's a total railroad, but that's how it's supposed to go.

Personally, I never felt so scummy as a DM than after this encounter. I actually apologized to my players afterwards. "The book told me to do it! I was just following orders!" Surprisingly, no one seemed to mind.

 

[robus]

I agree with Horus. The encounter is supposed to be a cut-scene. The outcome is already determined, so there's no need to roll for anything. If your players are trying to fight Iymrith, then follow the book's advice: have Harshnag throw the characters out the door and slam it shut behind them. It's a total railroad, but that's how it's supposed to go.

Personally, I never felt so scummy as a DM than after this encounter. I actually apologized to my players afterwards. "The book told me to do it! I was just following orders!" Surprisingly, no one seemed to mind.

Yeah I got the stinkeye from my rules lawyer about the obviously ridiculous imbalance! I guess railroading it seemed wrong, but I should have narrated it such that it was a situation over which they had little control except for their personal safety. 'The ship is sinking what do you?' - you definitely don't try to refloat the ship down in the engine room!

 

[KarinsDad]

In my group, it did not matter if the book stated that it was a cut scene.

They kicked her butt, even with me giving her double CHA spells instead of just 6 (i.e. 12 spells). Harshnag wasn't going to say "Flee you fools" until it was apparent that the PCs were going to lose.

They didn't. Sure, several of them went unconscious, but adventure designers have no clue how powerful synergies can be in the game (granted, we had 6 9th level PCs; with fewer PCs or lower levels, it would not have been as easy).

This actually worked out well in my game since in my game, they have to go to ALL of the non-Storm Giant "giant lairs" and take out each individual evil giant leader as part of the adventure (I have no clue why the adventure designers create 4 extra giant lairs that are not supposed to be used in the adventure, smh). I allow them to teleport to the temple in each lair via the Oracle room, so losing the Oracle room would have made it more difficult.

 

[robus]

They didn't. Sure, several of them went unconscious, but adventure designers have no clue how powerful synergies can be in the game (granted, we had 6 9th level PCs; with fewer PCs or lower levels, it would not have been as easy).

Wow. Yeah from where I was sitting she seemed pretty invincible!

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow. Yeah from where I was sitting she seemed pretty invincible!

The party's biggest issue was that the Monk and Cleric could not get into range that often. I had Iymrith flying around in that large room staying out of range of most PCs and trying to pick groups of them off with spells or breath weapon (and anyone who flew in close got a taste of claws, bite, tail and wings). Even Harshnag had issues and I stupidly forgot that he could throw rocks like other giants, so he would get close, throw his axe (which I allowed), and then go run over and pick it back up. At the end of the fight, even after she Polymorphed into a Storm Giant (for more hit points and the ability to head to the Oracle room which the PCs prevented), they were whittling her down, so Iymrith ended up grabbing Harshnag's axe and teleporting away (she was down to about 100 hit points, I never let my dragons die in a fight unless the PCs manage to pour it on in the last round and they die accidentally).

This resulted in some fun as Harshnag has NOT been a happy NPC since then. The PCs gave him an adamantine giant club they found, but to him, it's not the same.


The real issue is the size of the room. The PCs could spread out and although the dragon could fly down and beat on one of them (or beat on them, grab them, fly them to the ceiling and drop them; always fun ), large rooms have historically been bad for dragons because it limits the number of PCs that can get caught in breath weapons or area spells. The action economy of 7 PC/Harshnag actions vs. 2 or 3 Dragon actions per round eventually catches up.

I even gave the Dragon a 9th level Mage pet with a Wand of Fireballs sitting on a saddle on her neck to even out action economy a bit. That Mage died in round one and he even had defensive spells up. It was SO sad.

 

[Tormyr]

The party's biggest issue was that the Monk and Cleric could not get into range that often. I had Iymrith flying around in that large room staying out of range of most PCs and trying to pick groups of them off with spells or breath weapon (and anyone who flew in close got a taste of claws, bite, tail and wings). Even Harshnag had issues and I stupidly forgot that he could throw rocks like other giants, so he would get close, throw his axe (which I allowed), and then go run over and pick it back up. At the end of the fight, even after she Polymorphed into a Storm Giant (for more hit points and the ability to head to the Oracle room which the PCs prevented), they were whittling her down, so Iymrith ended up grabbing Harshnag's axe and teleporting away (she was down to about 100 hit points, I never let my dragons die in a fight unless the PCs manage to pour it on in the last round and they die accidentally).

This resulted in some fun as Harshnag has NOT been a happy NPC since then. The PCs gave him an adamantine giant club they found, but to him, it's not the same.


The real issue is the size of the room. The PCs could spread out and although the dragon could fly down and beat on one of them (or beat on them, grab them, fly them to the ceiling and drop them; always fun ), large rooms have historically been bad for dragons because it limits the number of PCs that can get caught in breath weapons or area spells. The action economy of 7 PC/Harshnag actions vs. 2 or 3 Dragon actions per round eventually catches up.

I even gave the Dragon a 9th level Mage pet with a Wand of Fireballs sitting on a saddle on her neck to even out action economy a bit. That Mage died in round one and he even had defensive spells up. It was SO sad.

I have found that after 4 or 5 PCs, solo creatures of 20th level or higher need another 90 hp or 1 legendary action per PC. Harshnag is worth 2 PCs at the level they were at.. So you can give an ancient Dragon another 360 hp or 180 hp and 2 legendary actions.

 

[robus]

[MENTION=2011]KarinsDad[/MENTION] sounds epic. I hope to clean things up in similar manner next session. Except I'm going to have Blagothkus riding the dragon