Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat) -- and Streamlining Hero

[mmadsen]

After reading some high praise here for Silver Age Sentinels -- and some not-so-high praise for the d20 version -- I picked up the Deluxe, Limited-Edition, Tri-Stat version at my local Wizards of the Coast store.

Years ago I rabidly supported Hero's Champions line, but when the fifth edition came out, I realized I didn't want a dozen stats, dozens more figured stats, a 12-segment speed chart, endurance tracking, and the consequent three-hour combats. Champions had many great ideas, but few of them required the kind of complexity the system's known for. The strongest idea, separating powers into game mechanics and "special effects" certainly doesn't require complicated rules, and the idea of customizing your powers shouldn't be too complicated either.

When I read about Guardians of Order's new superhero game, Silver Age Sentinels, it sounded perfect -- flexible like Hero, but streamlined.

The Deluxe-Edition book is beautiful -- on the inside. Let me step back a moment. There are actually two versions of the game. Guardians of Order have put out a Tri-Stat book, using updated rules from their Big Eyes, Small Mouth line (their anime game and former flagship line, before they came out with SAS), and a d20 book, using most of their Tri-Stat rules kludged onto the d20 system. For each of those versions, Tri-Stat and d20, they've put out a Deluxe Edition, and they will be putting out a non-deluxe, black-and-white paperback later. Anyway, the Deluxe-Edition Tri-Stat book meets you with a terribly static, bland cover. The heroes are just standing there, lined up, left to right. The Deluxe d20 version has a much more dynamic cover.

Inside though, the layout is crisp and clean, and each chapter starts with a faux comic cover starring the game's heroes -- done in the style of the Golden Age, Silver Age, through the modern era. I really, really enjoyed the comic covers.

The art clued me in that Guardians of Order really nailed the comics ethos. They make a concerted effort to bring the reader up to speed on comicbook history -- Golden Age (intro of Superman and Batman through WWII), Silver Age (after the Comics Code, intro of Marvel Comics), etc. -- and to heartily endorse heroic heroes, not angst-ridden psychopaths. Hence the name: Silver Age Sentinels.

(To be continued...)

 

[yongi]

old school Hero fan converted

I'm an old school Hero junkie (started playing Champions in '82, used the system ever since for everything) and I have to admit that the tri-stat SAS is definitely a wonderment.

The quickplay rules, available here, give a good intro to the system, but definitely don't cover the depth and breadth of the real rulebook.

If you are interested in supers gaming, I really don't think you can go wrong with SAS. Especially if you like Hero but wish it were a little less rules-heavy.

-y-

 

[NLP]

SAS is a beautiful book, but the Tri-Stat system bores me to death. Who wants to play a game with 3 stats? Not me. The strangest part about it to me is that a normal's stats run from 1-12. That is Aunt May to Captain America. Every other superhero's stats have to fit from 13-20. 12 steps to describe normal. 8 steps to describe superhuman. Talk about lopsided. I will stick with Champions.

By the way mmadsen, Champions has 8 Primary Characteristics and 6 Figured Characteristics. Not dozens of stats and dozens more figured stats. 14 in total. D&D has 6-7, Marvel Superheroes had 7, MEGS has 9. The more stats you have the more variation you can build into the character.

 

[Psion]

What, there wasn't enough hype over on RPGnet for a lifetime?

SAS is a beautiful book, but the Tri-Stat system bores me to death. Who wants to play a game with 3 stats? Not me.

Amen, brother.

The strangest part about it to me is that a normal's stats run from 1-12. That is Aunt May to Captain America. Every other superhero's stats have to fit from 13-20. 12 steps to describe normal. 8 steps to describe superhuman. Talk about lopsided.

Bizarre.

Gimme HERO or MEGS, thx.

 

[JeffB]

The number of stats make the game?

Personally I could care less if the game has 3, or 30 stats..it's all in how they are used.

That being said, SAS (Tri-stat) is the best Supers system I've seen in a long time. It may not be quite as flexible as HERO, but it's durn close and a helluva lot easier to learn, play and run...

In the end that's all that matters to me.

 

[Tsyr]

For those of us who have been using Tri Stat in other forms for some time, what does this offer over BESM? I mean, you can do some damn super-powered stuff with BESM...

 

[mmadsen]

SAS is a beautiful book, but the Tri-Stat system bores me to death. Who wants to play a game with 3 stats? Not me.

Because a Tri-Stat character clearly consists of just those three immutable stats...

The strangest part about it to me is that a normal's stats run from 1-12. That is Aunt May to Captain America. Every other superhero's stats have to fit from 13-20. 12 steps to describe normal. 8 steps to describe superhuman. Talk about lopsided. I will stick with Champions.

Hero has four steps to describe normal (5, 10, 15, 20), and for most stats -- with the exception of Strength -- you won't see values above 40, another four steps above normal.

At any rate, most people complained that Hero didn't have enough detail at the lower end. It was too granular. You could be normal (10), talented (15), or as good as a human gets (20).

By the way mmadsen, Champions has 8 Primary Characteristics and 6 Figured Characteristics. Not dozens of stats and dozens more figured stats. 14 in total.

Oh, you caught me!

Seriously, Champions has:

Str
Dex
Con
Body
Int
Ego
Pre
Com

PD
ED
Spd
Rec
End
Stun

OCV
DCV
ECV

Based on Spd, a player will want to track which Phases his character can act in. He also has to figure in his Armor and Force Field values into his PD and ED, keeping track of Resistant Defenses vs. Normal Defenses. He needs to allocate Skill Levels every phase to either OCV or DCV.

More than anything though, I suppose it isn't just the sheer number of stats that's a bit overwhelming; it's the fact that they all require constant accounting. Body and Stun take damage. Using powers (or Str) costs End. After Phase 12, Stun and End recover Rec points. OCV and DCV change depending on Skill Level allocation and Combat Maneuvers. There's the whole Spd chart thing.

Further, many concepts get splintered into questionable stats. Do you really need Con, Body, PD, ED, and Stun? That's five stats for toughness.

Do you need stats with values from 1 to 20 when only four real values exist: 5, 10, 15, 20? And who's the genius who thought we should round stat values for bonuses? So every character is full of stats like 13, 18, 23, etc. Ugh.

Is there a big payoff to all this? No, not really.

The more stats you have the more variation you can build into the character.

There's a cost to complexity. Sometimes the benefit does not outweigh the cost.

(I'll comment on the Tri-Stat system mechanics later...)

 

[mmadsen]

For those of us who have been using Tri Stat in other forms for some time, what does this offer over BESM? I mean, you can do some damn super-powered stuff with BESM...

I don't have any previous experience with Tri-Stat, but an appendix spells out the main differences between Big Eyes, Small Mouth and Silver Age Sentinels. Primarily, the d6 has been replaced with the d10, and superhuman Stats have expanded from the 9-12 range to 9-20; it's much less granular at the high end.

Similarly, the six Attribute levels in BESM are generally expanded to ten levels in SAS, Defects go up to 3 BP (not just 2 BP), and, oddly, Skills only go up to 5, not 6.

Aside from that, they added Power Modifier Values, Knockback, and variable damage.

 

[teitan]

Three stats?

I have SAS and BESM (love them both) and I will have to say that with defects and attributes three stats do not limit the system at all and you can make that strong but slow character etc. I would say it is the most versatile system I have seen with PMVS etc without getting overly complex, just very simple and way effective.

In all honesty it is prolly my favorite system, just wish I could explain it to my players.

Jason

 

[mmadsen]

Tri-Stat

Why is it called the Tri-Stat system? Because each character has three primary stats: Body, Mind, and Soul. For D&D players those three stats roughly map to D&D's six as follows:

Body -- Str, Dex, and Con
Mind -- Int, aspects of Wis
Soul -- Wis, Cha

I don't mind (if you'll pardon the pun) Mind and Soul, and I don't mind grouping Str and Con -- honestly, how often is a character concept "big and fragile"? -- but grouping Str, Con, and Dex into one Body stat bothers me. A staple of action stories (in many, many subgenres) is the smaller, more agile fighter defeating the big, slow brute -- technical boxer vs. brawler, little martial artist vs. thug, human vs. ogre, etc.

Now, the Tri-Stat system can handle a character who's big and strong but not agile, or witty but not eagle-eyed, or strong-willed but not charismatic. That's what the Less Capable Defect is for. A high Body stat with the Less Capable (Agility) Defect means the character is strong and tough but not agile. Given that one Value of a Stat only costs two Character Points, the Less Capable Defect is a bit coarse for my tastes though. For instance, for one Bonus Point you take a -3 penalty to a Major Aspect (e.g. Agility) or a -6 penalty to a Minor Aspect (e.g. Manual Dexterity).

A -6 penalty is quite extreme in a system that goes from 1 (inept), through 4 (adult human average), to 12 (max human potential), then on to 20 (max achievement in the universe). And that's to get one Bonus Point to add to your 175 Character Points you start with (if you're building an average superhero).

If you do the math, a "perfect" character -- with no powers -- only costs 120 points, well under the average superhero's point value. The book recommends restricting stats over 12 (max human potential) to one per character, and I didn't notice any sample characters with a stat above 16. At just 2 Character Points per Stat Value and a max Value of just 20, I have to wonder if the designers thought this through though. On the one hand, a character can easily be on a cosmic scale, but on the other, he's still not guaranteed to beat Joe Average in an opposed roll; it's a 2d10 system.

(More to come...)