Sigil, planar cities, 4E and older editions

[avin]

Fourth edition Manual of the Planes, a fine book (buy it, no matter what edition you play, it's cool), brings a new cosmology and also some changes on the biggest planar cities.

As presented Sigil seems to have lost a lot of importance. While I'm not too much pleased, point here is not simple ranting, I just want to understand how things worked on former editions.

Let's check what 4E says (I added some comments, feel free to ignore them and go straight to questions below).

1. The oldest city in creation is City of Brass - kinda weird to me. Being Sigil the universe "microcosmos" wouldn't be more appropriate if it existed for a longer time? Wasn't the old view of Sigil a place which begin none could date? Some time ago I read on these boards that CoB was the cover for 1E MoTP, maybe it's some kinda of homage...

2. The biggest commerce hub in universe is City of Brass - a bit controversial... I think a lot of good aligned people won't deal in a place full of slaves but every DM has his ideas I think.

3. Largest population is City of Brass - 500k versus Sigil's 250k. Hestavar is more populated, also.

4. "The most cosmopolitan and accessible of the astral domains" is Hestavar. Ok, somebody can say they said "astral domains" and Sigil is a demiplane, fair enough, but nothing hints cosmopolitan for Sigil.

5. Gloomwrought now is the place with changing streets and buildings. Sigil haD this property on Planescape: Torment and I remember reading that city's size changes, according to Lady of Pain's will. It was one of the coolest things about the City of Doors and it's not mentioned anymore.

All these things make me wonder.

Kinda neutral questions:

How that worked on older editions? Sigil was the planar focus for AD&D, what about the other cities? City of Brass was always the eldest city, most populated and had the bigger commerce?

How planar cities worked on 1E? Were they mentioned?

Kinda biased questions:

What's the role of Sigil now, a simple hub of portals?

City of Brass has portals to everywhere, Hestavar it's easier to reach, so what's the point of going to Sigil by the books? Tourism? There's a reason to go for any other cities mentioned but, by written text, a player would go to Sigil only to look for obscure portals and see Lady of Pain floating on the streets

MotP 4E says "Some call Sigil the City of Secrets, because everything that can be known is known somewhere in its twisting streets" and nothing more, maybe this is the new focus for Sigil, a place to find knowledge... this is a question Wotc should answer, but what do you guys think?

 

[diaglo]

city of brass dates back to the 1970's. rjkuntz

sigil is part of planescape from the 90's. (i wanna say 1994). david zeb cook

 

[avin]

city of brass dates back to the 1970's. rjkuntz

sigil is part of planescape from the 90's. (i wanna say 1994). david zeb cook

That's probably why CoB has a special place in 4E Cosmology.

It was mentioned like the "older city of the universe"?

 

[Shroomy]

In terms of the 4e cosmology, it makes sense for the City of Brass to be the oldest planar metropolis because the Elemental Chaos is one of the oldest planes in existence (if not the oldest, as I believe the Astral Sea came second; this is discounting the Far Realm).

 

[Mostlyjoe]

He who rules Sigil, rules the multiverse.

Sigil is the key to everything. The City of Brass has always had a lot of portals, but these portals for the most part are controlled by the Effret and Elementals. The city is routed in the Elemental Chaos and that means it limits your options when you are there. It's kinda like NYC, a big urban environment but bound by the theme and 'plane' it's assigned too.

What Sigil represents is a neutral bastion with portals that bypass the autority of the Gods or the Primordials. If either faction gained control of the City they would have unlimited access to the entirety of the Planes with nothing to stop them.

Sigil is the Cassablanca of WW2, it's the bustling freeport that planer adventures can roost in and rub shoulders with the Guilds and Factions of the city. It's Urban but without being tied to anyone theme. The Lady doesn't let anyone get on her case. Anyone.

 

[avin]

In terms of the 4e cosmology, it makes sense for the City of Brass to be the oldest planar metropolis because the Elemental Chaos is one of the oldest planes in existence (if not the oldest, as I believe the Astral Sea came second; this is discounting the Far Realm).

If we assume that Sigil is only a city, yes, agreed.

If we assume that Sigil is something else, I wouldn't think so.

4E *seems* to be saying that Sigil is just a city, so option 1 is more likely.

That said, Elemental Chaos can be the first 4E plane but nothing prevents that a true city born first on a more *controlled* plane, such as mortal world. 4E says Efreeti were the first race?

 

[Irda Ranger]

The CoB being oldest "makes sense" to me as the Elemental Chaos is a native environment for the Primordial and Archons. Nothing (other than possibly the Lady of Pain) is native to Sigil. So naturally cities would be built first where the beings originate, and Sigil would only have been built later once the demiplane was discovered by Planar travelers.

Further, the CoB being the primary commercial hub also "makes sense." Even if the CoB has fewer portals, the portals it has are predictable. Plus, it permits magic circles. Commerce is about logistics, and nothing would drive a logistician crazier than trying to deal with Sigil's random gateways. Even if the gateways are free, holding inventory while trying to find the one you want is not.

The population numbers seem a bit low to me, but that's easily ignored/tailored to campaign taste.

---

I agree with the OP's primary conjecture however. Sigil has been left without anything in particular to "be". Maybe it's a city of refugees where Angels not welcome in Heaven and Devils not welcome in Hell try to make a new life for themselves? A city of outcasts. A planar Tortuga?

Malcontents, Discontents, Governments in Exile, Heretics and Heathens?

 

[underthumb]

Sigil's population (in 2E) was approximately a million (Though only a third of the population actually lived in Sigil. Most were just visiting.)

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Maybe, I may have a odd view of Sigil but those things listed aren't really that important to me when it comes to Sigil.

For me, in a way despite being the "City of Doors" and such I have always run/viewed Sigil as a personal and intimate city. It may not be a good personal or a comfortable intimacy but it is there. It is about rubbing shoulder to shoulder with powerful beings and lowly humans. It is about the personalities of Sigil, that is what makes Sigil. Not statistics, not numbers but the people.

Hell I never would view it as such things anyway. Sigil may have existed in the past, but its current form is more recent. It is a place that chews you up and spits you out if your not good enough, so not a large population nor cosmopolitan. It also I never viewed as the biggest trade hub, it may get lots of traffic but it is for less known and more dangerous things, it is the black market of the multiverse.

 

[avin]

Hi Fallen Seraph, I read your idea of Sigil (a city with several layers of past, right?) and I think it fits to the idea of a city that changes according to Her Serenity's will.

Mostlyjoe's idea seems very close to mine too.

That said, I'm trying to look into a different direction, which is what's Sigil's purpose for 4E by the books and also what has changed for the planar cities such as City of Brass since OD&D days.

So far, by what's written, there's no much reason to live there...