D&D 5E Shove awesomeness ?

[Amatiel]

Saw this on sage advice ..When you make a Strength (Athletics) check to grapple or shove someone, are you making an attack roll?
Again, the answer is no. That check is an ability check, so game effects tied to attack rolls don’t apply to it. Going back to an earlier question, the hex spell could be used to diminish a
grappler’s effectiveness. And if the grappler’s target is under the effect of the Dodge action, that action doesn’t inhibit the grapple, since Dodge doesn’t affect ability check.

So... If someone has fireshield or is Dodging that will have zero effect on someone trying to Shove you on your arse with their shield, even though they are hitting you with it? My vulcun logic circuit fried on that one.. Anyone else ?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Saw this on sage advice ..When you make a Strength (Athletics) check to grapple or shove someone, are you making an attack roll?
Again, the answer is no. That check is an ability check, so game effects tied to attack rolls don’t apply to it. Going back to an earlier question, the hex spell could be used to diminish a
grappler’s effectiveness. And if the grappler’s target is under the effect of the Dodge action, that action doesn’t inhibit the grapple, since Dodge doesn’t affect ability check.

So... If someone has fireshield or is Dodging that will have zero effect on someone trying to Shove you on your arse with their shield, even though they are hitting you with it? My vulcun logic circuit fried on that one.. Anyone else ?

Such interactions are the price paid for trying to combine (a) natural language with (b) exception-based design. Some "attacks" are not "attack rolls." Some "spells" contain melee attacks, but because they aren't part of the Attack Action, no feature that specifies the "Attack Action" will count. I'm sure there are other examples.

It's the "how can a gelatinous cube be prone?" problem, but applied to allegedly "natural" language--things are explicitly supposed to "just make sense," compounding the problem when they don't. There is nothing that can be done about it within the 5e system without significant consequences--including DM adjudication (because ruling that they do count as actual attack rolls for all purposes would probably make it overpowered; but selectively having it count as an attack roll for stuff like Fire Shield and Dodge simply punishes the player for trying to do something other than 'I swing my sword, I swing my sword.')

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Imagine the difference being that in a shove, you don't have to hit a specific area and you don't have to get past armor. You just have to make contact somehow and apply pressure. They can either attempt to prevent you from making contact (Dexterity (Acrobatics)) or let you make contact and just push back (Strength (Athletics)). The average result of a Dexterity check is the same as your unarmored AC (and better if you have Acrobatics). Making a Strength (Athletics) check uses the same bonus as making an attack. With a weapon attack, you have to both make contact and get past any armor before you can do damage.

In the case of Dodge, yeah it's a bit weird that it doesn't help, but if you are proficiency in Acrobatics, you are already getting a better chance to "dodge" a shove than to dodge an attack, so perhaps it would have been too much. I think it is reasonable to imagine that Dodge is more about taking a combat stance where you try to keep yourself moving to make it more difficult for everyone to hit you, whereas when someone tries to give you a shove bear-hug that extra movement isn't going to help anymore than your Dex (Acrobatics) already would.

Fire shield is pretty specific in how it functions. It doesn't respond to touch at all. You can grapple or be grappled and no one takes any damage from it. The damaging part of it only erupts out in response to an attack. So the fact that shove doesn't trigger fire shield actually makes sense, since it is closer to grappling that attacking.

Hopefully that helps make sense of it.

(And yes, hex to help grappling is a thing.)

 

[Kalshane]

When stuff doesn't "make sense" you either need to shrug and say "well, that's how it's written" or if you're the DM, make a house ruling that does make sense (though obviously your players need to trust your judgment or that can lead to arguments.)

Regarding Hex and grapples, last session we had PC get bitten by a Remorhaz. The warlock hexed the Remorhaz's strength, which would have imposed Disadvantage on its grapple checks if monsters used the PC grapple rules (rather than a set DC), so I allowed the bitten PC to roll with Advantage when they attempted to escape. It made sense to me that if the remorhaz was having its strength magically cursed, it would be harder for it to maintain a grip.

In typical fights, the warlock hexes enemies' Strength a lot to setup the Shield Master fighter for his shoves.

 

[Ovinomancer]

When stuff doesn't "make sense" you either need to shrug and say "well, that's how it's written" or if you're the DM, make a house ruling that does make sense (though obviously your players need to trust your judgment or that can lead to arguments.)

Regarding Hex and grapples, last session we had PC get bitten by a Remorhaz. The warlock hexed the Remorhaz's strength, which would have imposed Disadvantage on its grapple checks if monsters used the PC grapple rules (rather than a set DC), so I allowed the bitten PC to roll with Advantage when they attempted to escape. It made sense to me that if the remorhaz was having its strength magically cursed, it would be harder for it to maintain a grip.

In typical fights, the warlock hexes enemies' Strength a lot to setup the Shield Master fighter for his shoves.

That's good. You could have. alternatively, lowered the DC by 5.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'd let Dodge apply advantage to opposed Acrobatics checks to avoid a shove or a grapple. Seems like a bit of a hole in the RAW, pretty easy fix. I could also see a case for a shover or a grappler coming into contact with your skin (so if you are on fire or something, that could matter).

Overall, I think the grapple/shove rules are a little half-baked (as can be seen with how very powerful they can be), but it's niche enough that I haven't seen a call needing to be made on it since 5e's release.

Stealth, though, that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[Kalshane]

That's good. You could have. alternatively, lowered the DC by 5.

Actually, I should have. I just realized in retrospect that one of the grabbed PCs was the barbarian which means she would have had advantage on the roll anyway, since she was raging. Something that completely slipped my and the player's minds in the moment.

 

[77IM]

In my ideal world, Unarmed Strike is a martial weapon (so all the warrior-types have proficiency, plus monks [who can use Dex with it], but your commoners and wizards and things don't). You can use it to make an attack roll against AC to deal damage, or you can make an attack roll against Str save or Dex save (defender's choice) to initiate a grapple or shove. That seems a little better balanced in regards to bounded accuracy, and interacts better with attack rules (like Extra Attack and opportunity attacks), and would set a precedent for making an attack roll vs. something other than AC (which would solve a lot of my problems with the combat system, actually).

 

[Awesome Adam]

Meh, I'm trained in various arts and I can easily hooking, or sweeping, someone's leg while holding a sword and shield, even if they are on fire, with no consideration too how much armor they are wearing. The opposed skill check makes more sense than an attack roll. It also simulates a shield rush nicely as well.

Remember that they can stand up and attack you on their next action, so unless you have extra attack, or organized assistance fighting them, you've only inconvenienced them.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

If my players want to do something that's not part of the normal actions like preventing grapple/shove, then they can just tell me something like "I realize I'm next to a cliff so I focus this turn on preventing being kicked down the cliff". Then I'll re-interpret that as help action "Give yourself advantage on the next acrobatics check".

I like it when my players can't just say "I dodge" if they need to be defensive, but have a choice of many different things that all give different advantages to them. They really shouldn't worry too much about their actions and just say what they want to do.