D&D 5E Short Rest Spellpoints (+)

[Xeviat]

Hi y'all. I keep going back and forth on whether I want to go back to 4E or just work on more 5E mods. Let's try the 5E mods.

Goal
I want more resources to be on a short rest recovery to create more balance between the different classes and to allow for more variety in narrative structure. I liked how adventures flowed in 4E.

Design
Looking at the Spell Point system in the DMG, which just trades slots for points, spell points for full casters grow at "roughly" level * 6. Divided by the 3 rests a day (2 short, 1 long) and you end up with level *2. Interestingly enough, Monk ki points are level*1, with none at first level, which would make them a half caster.

This spellpoint math lines up reasonably well against the Warlock as well. But the warlock can't cast with less than full slots, so spell points on a warlock would increase their strength.

So, if I go and make these changes, what pain points do you foresee:

• Full casters gain spellpoints equal to level * 2, recovered on a short rest. (Likely, at 11th level and higher, this will cap off and they'll gain their high level spell slots on a long rest recovery). Half-casters gain level * 1 spell points. Third-casters get level * 2/3.
• I may merge the Sorcerer and Warlock.

This would reduce the total amount of spell power a caster could bring to bear in a single fight, meaning the party likely won't be able to handle an individual challenge of as high a level as before. But, they will be able to handle challenges more consistently.

I may have to change healing spells. The Warlock now can get short rest healing spells, and a few other classes have short rest healing abilities, but this would open it up to far more. How should I deal with this? I'm happy to do a wound/vitality system and have only higher level long rest abilities recover wound points.

What are your thoughts?

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think you could do something along these lines. FWIW we've been using spell points for months. We still get them back on long rest, but it works really well and is easier to track. It also allows greater versatility in that a caster could do a lot of weaker spells or spend them quick with powerful spells or anywhere in between.

With you do level x2, it is close to probably how many points we get.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

I think you could do something along these lines. FWIW we've been using spell points for months. We still get them back on long rest, but it works really well and is easier to track. It also allows greater versatility in that a caster could do a lot of weaker spells or spend them quick with powerful spells or anywhere in between.

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With you do level x2, it is close to probably how many points we get.

Whoa, I like it a lot. Care to expend on how you deal with warlock SR spellcasting at your table?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Whoa, I like it a lot. Care to expend on how you deal with warlock SR spellcasting at your table?

Thanks! We liked it a lot.

Sure. We just added our first warlock in our CoS game since implementing this system.

Warlock's gain 1 spell point per level, and add half (round up) their CHA modifier. We track their spells points separately because they regain all of their spell points on a short rest. They don't get their spellcasting modifier on a short rest, of course. We require they cast their spells at their highest level (up to 5th, as normal), but can cast at lower levels if their spells points are too low. Mystic Arcanum works the same as usual.

I'll give you an example. My character, Molcolt Cosadar, is a Sorcerer 3/ Warlock 3 with CHA 18.

This means he has 16 (level 3 x 4 + 4) SP for his Sorcerer and 5 (level 3 + 2) for his Warlock.
I record this as 16 + 5* on his character sheet. With his +7 spellcasting modifier, I can regain 7 of the 16 sorcerer points on a short rest and all 5 warlock points.

Tapping into his Warlock points require he use 2 at a time and cast any spell at 2nd-level since that is what a warlock can cast at level 3. So, I can cast 2 spells (4 points total), after those are gone I can use the last remaining slot to cast at 1st-level. If I have any of my 16 sorcerer points, however, I have to pair one with the remaining warlock point to cast at 2nd-level.

If all this seems too complex (it isn't really bad once you try it out), just keep warlocks on slots and track other points separately.

By comparison, my other character, Fflewdurr Fflam, is a Bard 6, with CHA 14. So he has 26 (level 6 x 4 + 2) spell points. He recovers 5 spells points on a short rest (spellcasting modifier +5). After a long rest and two short rests, he would have the ability to spend 36 points.

If Morcolt also had CHA 14 (instead of 18), he would have 14 + 4* spell points. He would gain 5 for sorcerer and 4 for warlock on a short rest. After a long rest and two short rests, he would the ability to spend 36 points (14 + 4* + 5 + 4* + 5 + 4*) as well.

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Now, since a level-1 spell only costs a single point, casters can use a lot more spells than RAW. But, we like this as it allows for more utility and less reliance on cantrips.

 

[Xeviat]

I like the spell point costs in the PHB more, as it tracks closer to the damage dice numbers.

How do you handle some spells that are really good if you can cast tons of them, like Shield? As it is now, you get 3 shields a day before you have to start using higher level spell slots.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like the spell point costs in the PHB more, as it tracks closer to the damage dice numbers.

How do you handle some spells that are really good if you can cast tons of them, like Shield? As it is now, you get 3 shields a day before you have to start using higher level spell slots.

Well, all I can is for our system is hasn't been a problem so far and we've been using it for several months. If you want to keep the number of spells down, you can make each spell cost equal to the spell level + 1. Then the Shield spell would cost two points per use--still allows a lot of uses, but the cost will add up.

We still see casters burning through their points just as fast as they used to burn through slots.

 

[Harzel]

I think you could do something along these lines. FWIW we've been using spell points for months. We still get them back on long rest, but it works really well and is easier to track. It also allows greater versatility in that a caster could do a lot of weaker spells or spend them quick with powerful spells or anywhere in between.

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With you do level x2, it is close to probably how many points we get.

Interesting. I have a couple of questions.

If you MC two (or more) classes that use the same casting stat, do you add the ability mod just once, or once for each class? For example, if the character were Sorcerer(3)/Bard(3), with CHA 16, would it be (3*4 + 3) + (3*4 + 3) = 30, or 3*4 + 3*4 + 3 = 27?

Either way, this seems to advantage (all or some) MC characters, with the advantage being proportionally greater at lower levels. This could be alleviated by making the adder the average of your casting stat modifiers.

In the context of short rest recovery, you said your Sorlock has a "spell casting modifier" of +7. If this is correct, I'm not sure what you mean by "spell casting modifier". (Quite possible I am just a bit dense.)

 

[DND_Reborn]

Interesting. I have a couple of questions.

If you MC two (or more) classes that use the same casting stat, do you add the ability mod just once, or once for each class? For example, if the character were Sorcerer(3)/Bard(3), with CHA 16, would it be (3*4 + 3) + (3*4 + 3) = 30, or 3*4 + 3*4 + 3 = 27?

Either way, this seems to advantage (all or some) MC characters, with the advantage being proportionally greater at lower levels. This could be alleviated by making the adder the average of your casting stat modifiers.

In the context of short rest recovery, you said your Sorlock has a "spell casting modifier" of +7. If this is correct, I'm not sure what you mean by "spell casting modifier". (Quite possible I am just a bit dense.)

Yes, if the MC uses the same ability score for two spell casting classes, you could it twice. So a Sorc 3/ Bard 3 would have 30.

This does give a slight edge to MC spellcasters, but the downside as always is you lose access to higher level spells. With your example, you don't know 3rd level spells. With my spell point system, you can't casts any of your spells at 3rd level, either. This is different from normal MC rules where MC spell casters can still have higher level slots even if they don't know how higher level spells.

As far as spellcasting modifier, no problem. I am sure the distinction (minor but significant) is easy to miss:

Your spellcasting modifier is equal to your proficiency bonus plus your spellcasting ability score modifier.

If you like the idea but want a few less points, just recovery the spellcasting ability score modifier in points without adding the proficiency bonus, use only the highest modifier, etc.

Overall, the main benefit is it allows casters to utilize more lower level spells without having to pay for it by using higher level slots, etc. It makes things feel more "magical".

 

[GlassJaw]

FWIW we've been using spell points for months. We still get them back on long rest, but it works really well and is easier to track. It also allows greater versatility in that a caster could do a lot of weaker spells or spend them quick with powerful spells or anywhere in between.

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Wow very cool. I like spell points a lot. I wish the sorcerer used them by default.

Just curious - why did you depart from the system in the DMG?

 

[Quartz]

I want more resources to be on a short rest recovery to create more balance between the different classes and to allow for more variety in narrative structure.

See this thread about wizards and this post in particular.. That should give you a good start.