Level Up (A5E) Seen Spell Component and Incapacitated Condition

[ElliottBalding]

"A spell cast with a seen component can’t be cast by an incapacitated creature." pg 495 AG
"An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions." pg 617 AG

In O5E if something prevents you from taking an action, it also prevents you from taking a bonus action. Is this still the case in A5E?
If it is then in what way could they be casting a spell with a seen component when they have no way to cast at all anyway?

 

[Steampunkette]

"A spell cast with a seen component can’t be cast by an incapacitated creature." pg 495 AG
"An incapacitated creature can't take actions or reactions." pg 617 AG

In O5E if something prevents you from taking an action, it also prevents you from taking a bonus action. Is this still the case in A5E?
If it is then in what way could they be casting a spell with a seen component when they have no way to cast at all anyway?

Let's say I'm a Sorcerer. I'm under the effects of Hold Person. Hold Person "Paralyzes" a target which incapacitates them so they can't move or speak.

I select a Bonus Action spell. 1 point on Subtle Spell. Now my V/S/M spell has only an M component and I'm holding my focus in hand.

I cast the spell as a Bonus Action with no Vocal or Seen component while Incapacitated.

Alternatively, if I've got a spell with only a Material component, I can Quicken a 1 action spell to a Bonus Action for 2 spell points and bam, cast while Held.

By explicitly making it Seen Components, Actions, and Reactions, they make Sorcerers capable of acting while Paralyzed... but not -much-, and it's -costly-.

 

[ElliottBalding]

Let's say I'm a Sorcerer. I'm under the effects of Hold Person. Hold Person "Paralyzes" a target which incapacitates them so they can't move or speak.

I select a Bonus Action spell. 1 point on Subtle Spell. Now my V/S/M spell has only an M component and I'm holding my focus in hand.

I cast the spell as a Bonus Action with no Vocal or Seen component while Incapacitated.

Alternatively, if I've got a spell with only a Material component, I can Quicken a 1 action spell to a Bonus Action for 2 spell points and bam, cast while Held.

By explicitly making it Seen Components, Actions, and Reactions, they make Sorcerers capable of acting while Paralyzed... but not -much-, and it's -costly-.

I think you misunderstood my point. If, like O5E, it means you can't cast bonus action spells either while being incapacitated, what is the point of this text?
As I can't find any ruling on it in book I guess you can use BA's while incapacitated which I don't like as it makes no sense. I'll just homebrew it to be like O5E in that regard

 

[Vilify]

Let's say I'm a Sorcerer. I'm under the effects of Hold Person. Hold Person "Paralyzes" a target which incapacitates them so they can't move or speak.

I select a Bonus Action spell. 1 point on Subtle Spell. Now my V/S/M spell has only an M component and I'm holding my focus in hand.

I cast the spell as a Bonus Action with no Vocal or Seen component while Incapacitated.

Alternatively, if I've got a spell with only a Material component, I can Quicken a 1 action spell to a Bonus Action for 2 spell points and bam, cast while Held.

By explicitly making it Seen Components, Actions, and Reactions, they make Sorcerers capable of acting while Paralyzed... but not -much-, and it's -costly-.

If you're looking to skirt the rules, the wording for incapacitated is "you cannot take any actions or reactions." A bonus action is still an action, it merely requires a bonus action to use by my interpretation. (This seems to be just as vague as o5e's wording on it, which is one of the few things I'm disappointed about.)

That aside, while there is the unfortunate issue of nowhere in the AG listing you need your spellcasting focus in hand(but that you need to touch a focus tattoo, or the battle caster feat explicitly allowing you to cast spells with your hands full of weapons/shields), I'm assuming there is some sort of interaction for Material components/their substitutes requiring a hand free to perform.

It'd be an unfortunate oversight if not.

That all said, you're free to allow loop holes to spells all you want at your table, and pick or choose what rules from A5e you'd like to use to begin with.

 

[Stalker0]

If you're looking to skirt the rules, the wording for incapacitated is "you cannot take any actions or reactions." A bonus action is still an action, it merely requires a bonus action to use by my interpretation. (This seems to be just as vague as o5e's wording on it, which is one of the few things I'm disappointed about.)

I will disagree with your interpretation for the following reasons:

1) From a rules lawyer standpoint, a "Bonus Action" is never actually defined in LU. We are simply told we get an "Action, Bonus Action, and reaction on our turn". There is never a notion that a bonus action is a "small action". And if you do go with that interpretation, than that means you could cast a Bonus Action spell using your full action (which has been called out as illegal in O5e rules discussions).

2) The more damning evidence. The confused condition specifically calls out in bullet point 4 " On a 5 or 6, a confused creature takes no
action or bonus action and uses all its movement to move in a randomly determined direction."

Meanwhile, Incapacitated only refers to actions, with no mention of bonus action.


I think from a strict rules standpoint, bonus actions are clearly defined as distinct from regular actions, so based on the current rules, an incapacitated creature can cast bonus action spells without issue.

Now if that seems "crazy" to you, we have to remember that incapacitated is somewhat a poorly named condition. I think most people think of unconscious, which is a much harsher 5e condition, or stunned....which also has additional restrictions. Incapacitated is basically a "minor stun", its more similar to the old 3e daze condition.

 

[Damos]

I think some Narrator judgement is needed here, as under ruling (1) an Unconscious person also gets a bonus action (can't move, can't speak, is unaware of surroundings, is Incapacitated i.e. can't take an action or reaction).

 

[Vilify]

I will disagree with your interpretation for the following reasons:

1) From a rules lawyer standpoint, a "Bonus Action" is never actually defined in LU. We are simply told we get an "Action, Bonus Action, and reaction on our turn". There is never a notion that a bonus action is a "small action". And if you do go with that interpretation, than that means you could cast a Bonus Action spell using your full action (which has been called out as illegal in O5e rules discussions).

2) The more damning evidence. The confused condition specifically calls out in bullet point 4 " On a 5 or 6, a confused creature takes no
action or bonus action and uses all its movement to move in a randomly determined direction."

Meanwhile, Incapacitated only refers to actions, with no mention of bonus action.


I think from a strict rules standpoint, bonus actions are clearly defined as distinct from regular actions, so based on the current rules, an incapacitated creature can cast bonus action spells without issue.

Now if that seems "crazy" to you, we have to remember that incapacitated is somewhat a poorly named condition. I think most people think of unconscious, which is a much harsher 5e condition, or stunned....which also has additional restrictions. Incapacitated is basically a "minor stun", its more similar to the old 3e daze condition.

Indeed, I'm very familiar with it. However I think it's a matter of the A5e team merely not bothering to update the incapacitated condition's wording. However the hole in your logic was mentioned by Damos.

I think some Narrator judgement is needed here, as under ruling (1) an Unconscious person also gets a bonus action (can't move, can't speak, is unaware of surroundings, is Incapacitated i.e. can't take an action or reaction).

Stalker0, by your logic, you can subtle spell misty step as a sorcerer freely whilst unconscious. The only limit being spell slots, and spell points.
More than likely it's a small oversight on A5e's part, rather than some convenient loop hole meant for clever rules lawyers.

 

[Stalker0]

Stalker0, by your logic, you can subtle spell misty step as a sorcerer freely whilst unconscious. The only limit being spell slots, and spell points.
More than likely it's a small oversight on A5e's part, rather than some convenient loop hole meant for clever rules lawyers.

So technically you can't misty step, because that requires sight, and you are unaware of your surroundings.

That said, I do agree with you that this seem to be an unintended loophole....though I am actually curious what spells could you actually cast using it? A spell would have to meet the following criteria:

• Be castable by a Sorceror (either on a sorc spell list or obtainable through some other method by a sorcerer)
• Have either S only components, or V only components (aka no components when used with subtle spell metamagic)
• Is not concentration (incapacitation drops concentration)
• Require a Bonus Action
• Not require any line of sight, and not require a touch range.

Now I don't think that is logic to support the notion that "bonus actions are a mini-action", but I do think its a reasonable assumption that the unconscious condition should include "bonus actions" in its language.

 

[ElliottBalding]

but I do think its a reasonable assumption that the unconscious condition should include "bonus actions" in its language.

Indeed. Otherwise it doesn't make sense at all. You shouldn't be able to take a BA if you are unconscious. Even with the use of sorcery points when you are a sorcerer.

 

[Stalker0]

That said, I do agree with you that this seem to be an unintended loophole....though I am actually curious what spells could you actually cast using it?

So I took a look at a few online spell lists that have good filtering, and so I did some quick hunting to see.... is there actually any spells that you could cast using this loophole?

The answer so far is 0.... and that's looking at all spells let alone sorcerer ones. There are very very few spells that are V only or S only and a bonus action....and once you add in the sight clause it drops to 0.