Scorching Ray- Overpowered?
- Thread starter MacMathan
- Start date
frankthedm
First Post
Its almost too good later on when empowered, but since resistance applies to EACH ray, and with the Charge-O-Matic short range, it does have some drawbacks. It feels a bit strong for a 2nd level. 2 rays at most would be a good cap.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
The spell's description:
First, let's compare various features of the two:
School: Evocation vs. Conjuration. Both are high-damage schools, but evocation is the highest-damage school. This is a very minor disadvantage, since it's from a less-flexible school; a specialist in this school can't do as much as a conjuration specialist can do. Very minor advantage to Melf's.
Descriptor: More things are resistant to fire than to acid, I think; minor advantage to Melf's. OTOH, more things are especially vulnerable to fire than to acid (i.e., all cold creatures); minor advantage to Scorch. Equal out.
Level: same
Components: Scorch has no material or focus component, meaning it can be cast by prisoners or other casters stripped of their possessions. Minor advantage to Scorch.
Casting Time: Same
Range: Short for Scorch, Long for Melf's. Significant advantage for Melf's: can be used profitably in outdoor encounters or other encounters with large initial distances.
Effect and Duration: see below
Save: none for either
SR: Yes for Scorch, no for Melf's. Significant advantage for Melf's.
Setting aside what the spell actually does, Melf's has two big advantages over Scorch: it can shoot further, and it's not affected by SR. Scorch has one big advantage: it can be cast without any material components or foci.
As for what they do, they've each got their own advantages. Melf's does less damage at most levels, and can only affect one target; on the other hand, its constant damage can force concentration checks much more easily than Scorch can, especially when an opponent is under the effect of multiple Melf's. Let's look at damage for the spell at several levels. We'll assume that all attacks hit -- although Melf's is more likely to do no damage (since you roll to hit once only), it's also more likely to do full damage. In the end, I think that'll average out.
At third level, Scorch is the clear damage winner, at 4d6 points (avg 14) compared to Melf's 4d4 (avg 10).
At sixth level, Melf's is ahead, at 6d4 (avg 15) compared to Scorch's 4d6 (avg 14).
At seventh level, Scorch goes back into the lead, at 8d6 (avg 28) compared to Melf's 6d4 (avg 15).
At ninth, Melf's comes back into the running but still can't quite catch up, doing only 8d4 (avg 20) to Scorch's 28.
At eleventh level, Scorch goes even further ahead, doing 42 points on average, compared to Melf's 20. Scorch maxes out at this point.
Melf's, like a tortoise, plods on ahead. At twelfth, Melf's does 25 points of damage; at fifteenth, 30 points of damage; and at eighteenth, 35 points of damage. It never reaches the average damage of Scorch after sixth level.
So what've we got? We've got Scorch, from the archetypal blow-things-up school of magic, doing about 40%-80% more damage on average. It's most effective for up-close-and-personal wizards, and against SR creatures, it'll fail about half the time (I think; I think SR is designed to make appropriate CR creatures immune to about half of the SR-vulnerable spells cast at them), knocking its daamge in half. It's more flexible than Melf's and does its damage faster, but lacks the range and the ongoing damage benefits of the latter spell.
And IMC it's been cast only once so far, compared to the ubiquitous Melf's spells. Even then, it's cast nowhere near as often as Web or Glitterdust, the true powerhouses of second-level wizard spells.
Balance looks fine to me.
Daniel
[edit: balance might look good, but the colors were awful; now they're just ugly, but hopefully readable
]
Compare to the archetypal 2nd-level damage spell, Acid Arrow:
First, let's compare various features of the two:
School: Evocation vs. Conjuration. Both are high-damage schools, but evocation is the highest-damage school. This is a very minor disadvantage, since it's from a less-flexible school; a specialist in this school can't do as much as a conjuration specialist can do. Very minor advantage to Melf's.
Descriptor: More things are resistant to fire than to acid, I think; minor advantage to Melf's. OTOH, more things are especially vulnerable to fire than to acid (i.e., all cold creatures); minor advantage to Scorch. Equal out.
Level: same
Components: Scorch has no material or focus component, meaning it can be cast by prisoners or other casters stripped of their possessions. Minor advantage to Scorch.
Casting Time: Same
Range: Short for Scorch, Long for Melf's. Significant advantage for Melf's: can be used profitably in outdoor encounters or other encounters with large initial distances.
Effect and Duration: see below
Save: none for either
SR: Yes for Scorch, no for Melf's. Significant advantage for Melf's.
Setting aside what the spell actually does, Melf's has two big advantages over Scorch: it can shoot further, and it's not affected by SR. Scorch has one big advantage: it can be cast without any material components or foci.
As for what they do, they've each got their own advantages. Melf's does less damage at most levels, and can only affect one target; on the other hand, its constant damage can force concentration checks much more easily than Scorch can, especially when an opponent is under the effect of multiple Melf's. Let's look at damage for the spell at several levels. We'll assume that all attacks hit -- although Melf's is more likely to do no damage (since you roll to hit once only), it's also more likely to do full damage. In the end, I think that'll average out.
At third level, Scorch is the clear damage winner, at 4d6 points (avg 14) compared to Melf's 4d4 (avg 10).
At sixth level, Melf's is ahead, at 6d4 (avg 15) compared to Scorch's 4d6 (avg 14).
At seventh level, Scorch goes back into the lead, at 8d6 (avg 28) compared to Melf's 6d4 (avg 15).
At ninth, Melf's comes back into the running but still can't quite catch up, doing only 8d4 (avg 20) to Scorch's 28.
At eleventh level, Scorch goes even further ahead, doing 42 points on average, compared to Melf's 20. Scorch maxes out at this point.
Melf's, like a tortoise, plods on ahead. At twelfth, Melf's does 25 points of damage; at fifteenth, 30 points of damage; and at eighteenth, 35 points of damage. It never reaches the average damage of Scorch after sixth level.
So what've we got? We've got Scorch, from the archetypal blow-things-up school of magic, doing about 40%-80% more damage on average. It's most effective for up-close-and-personal wizards, and against SR creatures, it'll fail about half the time (I think; I think SR is designed to make appropriate CR creatures immune to about half of the SR-vulnerable spells cast at them), knocking its daamge in half. It's more flexible than Melf's and does its damage faster, but lacks the range and the ongoing damage benefits of the latter spell.
And IMC it's been cast only once so far, compared to the ubiquitous Melf's spells. Even then, it's cast nowhere near as often as Web or Glitterdust, the true powerhouses of second-level wizard spells.
Balance looks fine to me.
Daniel
[edit: balance might look good, but the colors were awful; now they're just ugly, but hopefully readable
]
Last edited:
Thornir Alekeg
Albatross!
I would only add a comparison to 3rd level Fireball
At 5th level Fireball deals 5d6, has better range, does not require a successful ranged touch attack and has an area effect so can affect multiple targets, but allows a Reflex save for half.
I cannot remember where Fireball maxes out for damage (don't have my books or the SRD here), but at 11th level the longer range and lack of an attack roll make up for the somewhat higher damage.
Scorch seems like it might be a tiny bit strong for 2nd, but it would be weak as a 3rd level.
At 5th level Fireball deals 5d6, has better range, does not require a successful ranged touch attack and has an area effect so can affect multiple targets, but allows a Reflex save for half.
I cannot remember where Fireball maxes out for damage (don't have my books or the SRD here), but at 11th level the longer range and lack of an attack roll make up for the somewhat higher damage.
Scorch seems like it might be a tiny bit strong for 2nd, but it would be weak as a 3rd level.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Excellent point, Thornir. Indeed, wasn't the effect ofScorch originally part of a 3rd-level spell called Flame Arrow that nobody ever, ever cast? It's definitely suckalicious for a third-level spell. To make it good at 3rd-level, you'd have to take away the touch attack, or up the damage.
Daniel
Daniel
Pielorinho said:
Completely anecdotal, but I'm seeing Scorching Ray cast far more often in the game I'm playing in than Melf's. Admittedly, the wizard is an evoker, so his spell focuses kick in with it, but S.R. seems much more powerful.
However, I do think there is one thing that you're overlooking, and which is a major hindrance for Melf's: energy resistances. While both of them are rendered pretty much useless by Resist Energy after 7th level, only Melf's can be easily defeated by a 2nd level spell cast by a 3rd level caster.
Vs Energy resistance, Melf's is definetly the loser.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Good point, Vanye, and one I forgot to add in. Resistances of 5 are pretty common amongst extraplanar creatures, rendering Melf's almost useless against them; Scorch can still poke some daamge through.
Technically, your evoker's spell focuses don't kick in with Scorch: since it has no save, it doesn't benefit from spell focus. It would benefit, however, from specialization in the same way that any spell benefits from being in a specialist's chosen school.
Out of curiosity, what level do y'all play at? One of the main reasons Melf's gets cast so often in the game I'm running is that, at tenth level and beyond, spell resistance becomes very common. The casters have taken to casting a lot of empowered or maximized Melf's as a way of doing some damage to such creatures.
Daniel
Technically, your evoker's spell focuses don't kick in with Scorch: since it has no save, it doesn't benefit from spell focus. It would benefit, however, from specialization in the same way that any spell benefits from being in a specialist's chosen school.
Out of curiosity, what level do y'all play at? One of the main reasons Melf's gets cast so often in the game I'm running is that, at tenth level and beyond, spell resistance becomes very common. The casters have taken to casting a lot of empowered or maximized Melf's as a way of doing some damage to such creatures.
Daniel
Agent.0.Fortune
First Post
Another huge advantage of Scortch over Melfs is damage over time. Scortch does everything up front. If you are going to kill an oppenent you do it the first round, not on the 3rd or 4th round after they have been whacking on you the whole time.
When it comes to direct damage, quicker is better.
NOTE: just to be fair someone should compare magic missile to Melf's, I think Melf's is a pretty crumby spell at 2nd level.
When it comes to direct damage, quicker is better.
NOTE: just to be fair someone should compare magic missile to Melf's, I think Melf's is a pretty crumby spell at 2nd level.
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