Savage Worlds

[Eisenhiem]

So, I've been thumbing through some of a friend's Savage Worlds books and looking at buying my own.. starting down that massive tract. I've historically been our DM/GM/Narrator/Referee/Supreme Dictator for more or less everything we've done for the last... decade or so.

Coming from a history of Rules heavy/immersive/holycrap sort of RPGs.. and a large range of complete homebrews (I have probably written several thousand pages of my own material, systems, supplements..gehhhh, etc) It's a bit weird to look over it and 1) be actually USING a published system for once and 2) One so.. apparently rules-light..

I'm still learning the system itself.. trying to wrap my head around everything and thus I have a couple questions.

1) What is the actual difference between the Savage Worlds corebook and the explorer edition?

2) SW seems to be relatively popular on the boards.. at least by way of passive mention. What tips, tricks, and advice might anyone have for playing it, building for it, or running it?

3) Are there any problem areas/things it doesnt do very well/potential issues that I should be aware of before i discover them by accident?

4) Any fantastic stories, amazing experiences, etc with the system?

Also. My first post on here. Wewt!

I look forward to anything you might have to say.

 

[Particle_Man]

1) The Explorer's Edition is the Core rules. They are the most up to date version of them.

2) From the pinnacle web site, get the "Combat Survival Guide" one page pdf and print out copies for yourself and each of your players. It gives vital tips on how to hit the opponents, and how to hurt the opponents once you hit them.

3) The arcane background based powers are bland until you or the players add "Trappings" to them. Make this happen. Don't just say "Bolt power" say "Stream of Unholy Acid" or something like that.

3b) When players make characters, they should be aware of what equipment they want to buy and carry, as well as what edges they want to have, first. This is because monetary and encumbrance limits can be harsh (and they might be slightly mitigated with a high strength and/or some appropriate cash edges and/or just getting extra money with "hindrance points") and because some edges have prerequisites (usually having some attributes or skills at a certain level). This will guide what attributes the character needs to get, what skills the character needs to get, what (other) edges the character needs to get, and how many hindrances the character needs to get.

In addition, buying up attributes can make it cheaper to get skills as they cost 2 for 1 when they go above their governing attribute. Similarly, it is cheaper to have a skill bought at chargen than to buy it at d4 later on.

Note that while background edges tend to be bought at chargen early, a convincing story and a convinced GM can allow them to be taken later. So you might want to make it clear to players how easy it will be to sell you on taking edges later, so they know in advance whether to buy it at chargen or whether they can wait and get it later. This of course might vary by background edge.

3c) I have heard that it is possible to build a "persuasion/contacts" charisma-monster, so you might want to watch out for that.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Particle Man has a pretty good summary.

1) Errata, clarifications, and changes based upon player feedback. They changed incapacitation, the knock-out blow table, and a lot of other small things that their players said were too clunky. Also they changed melee damage into another weapon damage roll (one die strength plus one die weapon), rather than a modified strength roll. This makes unarmed combat a lot less powerful.
Oh, and the Explorer Edition is missing all those sweet vehicle write-ups (Apache gunship, Hover Tank, etc.).

2) It's a gritty and dangerous system that encourages the use of real-world thought, tactics, and problem solving. A lot of the problems encountered are better solved with words or a clever ploy than with violence (though violence is always an option). If you or your players aren't up for that then my advice is to move on.
The rules assume miniatures (of some sort) on a battle map. You can run it without a map but there are a lot of features that really suffer for the lack.
Game play is actually pretty smooth. The rules are fairly simple and consistent with only a few ridiculous combinations (three background edges plus a social edge and a hindrance can give a Charisma of +10, which guarantees just about any Persuasion/Streetwise check ever). However, these few combinations are remarkable for their rarity rather than their frequency.
For skillful characters, Agility and Smarts are the keys, with Spirit being useful. For combat characters, Agility is key with Spirit and Vigor being highly useful; Strength is of limited utility for non-melee characters, while being useful (but not amazing) for melee combat characters.

To expand on 3) Savage Worlds is bad at making ....
Characters that aren't normal people. The RAW character generation builds perfectly average people, made exceptional by a "heroic spark" (Wild Card) and their own character flaws (Hindrances). For some groups and campaigns this is ideal. For other groups or campaigns this is a serious weakness of the system. What it does do, for all groups, is make it very difficult to play certain archetypes or characters progressing towards certain archetypes.

It's a fairly simple adjustment (more/fewer ability points / skill points; card-draw abilities and fixed skill points; etc.) to better fit the tastes of your group.


P.S. Encourage players to take the Hindrances that fit their characters. If they're going to RP it anyway, they might as well get a Benny for doing so. And you only get RP Bennies for your Hindrances or plot advancement, not for being a stupid PC that just got the party into a world of trouble (unless the brand of stupid was one of your character's Hindrances).

 

[Qualidar]

2) From the pinnacle web site, get the "Combat Survival Guide" one page pdf and print out copies for yourself and each of your players. It gives vital tips on how to hit the opponents, and how to hurt the opponents once you hit them.

That's solid advice, right there.

2) It's a gritty and dangerous system....

To expand on 3) Savage Worlds is bad at making ....
Characters that aren't normal people. The RAW character generation builds perfectly average people, made exceptional by a "heroic spark" (Wild Card) and their own character flaws (Hindrances). For some groups and campaigns this is ideal. For other groups or campaigns this is a serious weakness of the system. What it does do, for all groups, is make it very difficult to play certain archetypes or characters progressing towards certain archetypes.

Other than what I'm quoting, I agree with VGH.

But...I feel like VGH is talking about a completely different game than what I've played: for us, Savage Worlds is all about swashbuckling / pulp action. I've seen a character stand toe-to-toe in melee with a dragon and win. I've taken out T-rexes with one shot from a rifle. We swing on ropes and curtains. Fear our improvisation, time-traveling SkeleCogs!

Granted, those were more advanced characters, but I don't think of it as "a gritty and dangerous system". But that might be the scale of perception. A high-level (legendary) character in SW is Zorro, or Conan, or Captain Jack Sparrow. He's not Superman, or a 15th level D&D character, or someone from Exalted. One of the campaigns I'm playing in is Necessary Evil, which is a supers game. I don't find the system a good match for that: we're "SuperVillains", but it really only makes what M&M would call street-level characters. I'm giving up a lot in my tribute to the Lizard. By the time I'm legendary I'll be able to afford my vision of what he should be, but in the meantime he's a bit lacking.

So: not necessarily the best system for everything, but a great system for swashbuckling / pulp action, IMO. And apparently good for gritty and dangerous for ValhallaGH's group too. I look forward to using it for my WeirdWildWildWest game soon.

Good luck!

 

[coyote6]

But...I feel like VGH is talking about a completely different game than what I've played: for us, Savage Worlds is all about swashbuckling / pulp action. I've seen a character stand toe-to-toe in melee with a dragon and win. I've taken out T-rexes with one shot from a rifle. We swing on ropes and curtains. Fear our improvisation, time-traveling SkeleCogs!

Granted, those were more advanced characters, but I don't think of it as "a gritty and dangerous system".

I think he's talking about default starting characters; they're barely more capable & competent than the default Average Person. Compare them to sample stats for, say, soldiers or cops or the like, and (IIRC -- I've only played SW at cons and a couple of one-shots I've ran) starting characters seem kind of wimpy.

Of course, the PC advantage is that they're Wild Cards and get to roll that extra die, and get bennies. But strictly by the numbers, you aren't going to get Lara Croft/Indiana Jones/Han Solo/Jack Sparrow/etc. as starting characters. To me, that feels weird, that the pulp/action game doesn't let you start as a pulp/action hero.

It's not hard to let the PCs start out better than rank Novices, though.

Edit: oh, and if you're stingy with bennies, I can see how it could be more gritty than a game where the bennies flow fast and furious; if you can't roll to soak the occasional big hit, it could get painful fast.

 

[Particle_Man]

Good point. Be generous with bennies.

Also if you have a mixed party with some combat-wombats and some non-combat characters, remind the non-combat characters that they can use tricks, taunts, intimidates to give an advantage to their friends in combat (to the point of causing opponents to be Shaken, which is a BIG advantage if you to it just before your combat friend attacks the person).

Oh, if you use the Explorer's edition, remember p. 75 (the incapacitation table) and p. 101 (the fear effects table).

To the latter end, remind the players not to cheap out on Spirit/Guts. Low Spirit could leave them shaken for a large part of the combat. Low Guts could be really crappy if you scare them a lot.

 

[Qualidar]

I think he's talking about default starting characters; they're barely more capable & competent than the default Average Person. Compare them to sample stats for, say, soldiers or cops or the like, and (IIRC -- I've only played SW at cons and a couple of one-shots I've ran) starting characters seem kind of wimpy....

I feel starting SW characters are about on par with starting (non 4e) D&D characters: capable, but fragile. That's my baseline of normal, though. If you're used to something like M&M it's going to feel weak for sure.

...Edit: oh, and if you're stingy with bennies, I can see how it could be more gritty than a game where the bennies flow fast and furious; if you can't roll to soak the occasional big hit, it could get painful fast.

That's a good point. It might just be the GM styles. Our GMs usually give us bennies for fun and out-of-the box stunts, rather than charging for them, which encourages a pulpy feel.

 

[Particle_Man]

I feel starting SW characters are about on par with starting (non 4e) D&D characters: capable, but fragile. That's my baseline of normal, though. If you're used to something like M&M it's going to feel weak for sure.

Although M&M characters are pretty weak if they start at level 1 and have only 15 points to build their characters with.

 

[Qualidar]

Although M&M characters are pretty weak if they start at level 1 and have only 15 points to build their characters with.

I'm having visions of an all-preschool supers group.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I think he's talking about default starting characters; they're barely more capable & competent than the default Average Person.

That's correct, I was talking about 0 xp Novice characters.

My point is that it's difficult to really build a talented and capable beginner.
First example: I wanted to run a game where the player characters were low-experience special operators. I started them at Seasoned because it seemed like the place to be. I've since come to realize that to build a representative special operator you have to have at least Veteran characters to have the combination of skill breadth, skill depth, ability scores, and edges that portray the training operators go through as well as allowing a bit of personal adjustment.
Which is really annoying to me, since the Explorer Edition has a Novice adventure in the back where the combat NPCs (3 Wild Cards, 27 Extras) are all at least 15 experience characters, and more if they don't actually have any hindrances (instead of simply not bothering to make them more useful). And this is typical of the opponents faced in much of the game play of Savage Worlds.
I am well aware that NPCs don't have the same creation rules as PCs. However, figuring them out by PC rules is a good way to get a feel for what sort of experience it takes to build certain archetypes. I've found this useful in every game system I've ever messed with.

Second example: I was building up towards a Romance of the 3 Kingdoms game (actually based upon the Dynasty Warriors video games, but it's all fun). I went to build representations of some of the big legends, as they would have been around the time of the Yellow Turban rebellion (generally seen as the beginning of the period). I simply couldn't build some of them (Guan Yu, Xu Zhu) with the creation rules as the characters were simply too limited. And unlike Lu Bu, they were supposed to be playable.
The historic figures I was trying to emulate in the game were simply too talented and awesome to be portrayed as PCs in the Savage Worlds system.
And that's when I knew, with absolute certainty, that if I was going to mess with this system then I had to have character generation alternatives.

I've settled on two methods for me and my friends: more starting points (ability and/or skill), or random abilities.
The starting points are based upon a) player character talent and ranges from 4 to 8 ability points; b) player character skill training prior to adventuring experience and ranges from 12 to 21 skill points. I adjust and mix the numbers to get exactly the combination that suits the style of heroes I want in my game (untalented to human paragons, dilettante to highly trained but untested specialist). Hindrances can be used to increase the points as normal.
For the random abilities, I've borrowed from the Deadlands system of card draws: 2 is d4, 3-8 is d6, 9-J is d8, Q-K is d10, A and Joker are d12. Draw X and drop X-5 (usually 6 works fine, for some games I'd be willing to use 7 or even 8), assign as desired. Yes, it is possible to have a character with d12 in all abilities while having another character, in the same party, with d4 in three abilities. I'm cool with that and so are my players (generally). For this option I go with flat skill points, using the scale mentioned earlier.


As to the Grittiness, I've found it's actually less dangerous than the original Deadlands system was, despite the uncertainty of using a benny (or chip) to soak wounds; and Deadlands is survivable asuming a) PCs aren't killing each other (on purpose or accident), b) the really nasty things (vehicle collisions, monstrous assassins, servitors, etc) aren't cropping up very often.
That said, in Savage Worlds, any punk with a gun (or bow) can blow away even the most legendary of heroes. And someone with a flamethrower is death to every man (and woman) born. Which goes a very long way towards keeping the game feeling like most of the source material.

I hope that expansion helped clarify.