sandbox campaign - map size/scale?

GlassJaw

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I'm strongly considering running a sandbox campaign the next time I DM.

I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be. Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?

The second question is how detailed the scale should be. Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles? Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?

What is a realistic area of a creature's hunting territory? How far should towns and cities be away from each other? How far will a common folk's knowledge of the surrounding area be? Will they know about far-away places, ruins, rumors, etc?

I probably should check out some campaign modules, like the aforementioned Lost City of Barakus and Rappan Athuk, for some ideas on distance and scale.
 

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As was mentioned in another sandbox thread, check out this article if you have not already...

ars ludi » Grand Experiments: West Marches

Great article about a sandbox game - lots of good info. I read it a while back though so I don't recall if he goes into the scale... and I'm not good with scale myself so I am of no help, haha.
 

He does go into scale and one thing he states is this: DON'T use hexes as they create the illusion that once someone has been in the hex then they have seen everything.

Indeed, I would suggest using the same system as Ben from Ars Ludi: map in a small a scale as you can and put as much detail on your vector-based map as possible and aim to map an area that is no bigger than about a weeks journey time across, at least at first.
 

I'm strongly considering running a sandbox campaign the next time I DM.
Sounds good!

I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be. Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?
For an entire campaign the map should be at least 10 levels large, but you can probably get away with 3 or 4 to start. For an overland dungeon map the slowing of PC travel is far less than in city or underground dungeons. Try and estimate how far the PCs could travel in one session from the campaign starting point and expand out at least that far. This will not typically be a circular map because of the nature of the surrounding terrain. Mountains slow things up considerably, but roads, paths, rivers, waterways, and open water can extend the map considerable distances (because of potentially faster travel methods). So a prepared map will likely look oblong in consideration of terrain type. Remember the deeper the PCs travel into the dungeon (lvl 1 at starting point terrain, lvl 2, say, forest terrain, etc.) the longer it is going to to take them to move into a particular territory because of creatures / challenges therein. So don't worry about making, maybe, level 4 and above for the campaign start. That may mean you have some "hollow" giant forests and mountains where only the foothills are populated, but this allows for building between sessions according to the Players' actions.

The second question is how detailed the scale should be. Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles? Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?
My advice? Do not think of the world as needing to be gridded or hexed (like the Wilderlands map) where every river, shoreline, and road follow the hexes. Plastic overlays with hexes printed on work just as well for figuring out distance measurements on a hand drawn map as pre-hexed/gridded maps. Plus, free hand allows for greater design freedom and the essential penciling of the map (essential because all maps change as the game is played). For distance in your Legend, I think 1"=24 miles is best, but it all breaks down to terrain again and the penalties each has upon movement. 24 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,6,8, and 12, but 30 has 1,2,3,5,6,10, and 15. So it's more of a matter of what fractions are on the terrain table you are using. I *believe* AD&D used 24 miles in the DMG1e, but I can't remember for sure.

EDIT:
In terms of cluttering, it depends upon how large you want to make your early levels. Remember, the game world starts in equilibrium, so for every enemy populated area you will need equivalent neutral and ally dungeons. In standard D&D cities and towns are allies, wilderness is neutral, and underground dungeons are enemies. Personally, I would make the enemy territory about twice as large in terms of XPs as a large PC party needs to gain the next level. This includes treasure (resources). Whatever rule you make for this proportion, give the other two factions the equivalent abstract amounts and place lowest level territories of differing alignments next to each other. Like pawns on the chessboard, the borderlands are where the 1st level PCs begin. The potentially powerful allies and opponents lie farther afield.


What is a realistic area of a creature's hunting territory?
Each creatures is going to be different, but I've found it is best just to keep territory to the level or levels they are on. As with an underground dungeon, a single level may be divided up into separate territories too because of alignment conflicts. And, of course, the level they populate is based upon the Environment listing in the MM, which denotes terrain type for each creature's territory.

How far should towns and cities be away from each other?
They can be as far as whatever rule you want to make up for this. Typically towns and cities are one day's merchant travel away from at least one other. Basically, the distance a merchant wagon or vessel can travel. Civilized / Lawful population centers are almost always connected by man made constructions like roads extending this distance because of the speed gained on them. Neutral population centers may or may not have roads. Neutrals do not purposefully construct such. Paths, like those neutral animals create through accident, are used, but typically these only lead to natural resources. Uncivilized / Chaotic centers are really based upon whatever organized center already existed before they arrived.

How far will a common folk's knowledge of the surrounding area be?
Any creature is only going to know the territory they are within. They will also have historic knowledge of territories they were in, but that is only useful for knowing what was there. Which is certainly better than nothing.

Will they know about far-away places, ruins, rumors, etc?
When mapping information I find it is easiest to aggregate by faction and territory before specifying named NPC's knowledge. Information that has reached a territory will likely be known, in a town for example, by all 0-level adult NPCs who live there. Information spread only through a faction will be different, but this is still limited by territory. It's important to have rules for how information spreads, so the map can be altered as the game progresses. Given magical communication spells rumors don't just spread on foot.

I probably should check out some campaign modules, like the aforementioned Lost City of Barakus and Rappan Athuk, for some ideas on distance and scale.
LCoB isn't bad, but some things (like the area to the South and beyond the seashore) definitely need to be prepped before running. RA is more of a typical underground dungeon where all the above advice applies just as much, but it is an enemy territory to the PCs (unless you are playing a chaotic campaign?) So it would need at least as much Neutral and Civilized territory beyond its front lines (the dungeon entrances) as is in the module itself.
 
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When I run Wilderlands I use 15 miles per hex (ie I made the setting 3 times bigger), which works well for a wide-ranging campaign across open plains.

Lost City of Barakus uses 5 miles per hex, the map is not fantastic but it works ok. I had to add villages, which are absent from the map, and do a lot of work on it as it's not really finished IMO.

Running Vault of Larin Karr I changed the map scale of the Quail Valley from 5 miles per (very small) hex to 1 mile/hex, which puts the 3 villages around 14 miles apart rather than 70 miles(!) , and a total area ca 25 x 20 miles, which is ok for a short term sandbox.

I ran a successful Sandbox campaign with a map scale 10 miles per cm (or hex), taking a bunch of short adventures and creating a map around them is a technique I find always works very well. The scale was big enough to include cities and wide-ranging adventures.

I ran another semi-sandbox at 5 miles/hex, around 75 x 60 miles, which was ok for a more focused feel.

You can do 'starter' settings for say 3 levels of play at 1 mile/hex or 2 miles/hex, and a Western-type setting with lots of roaming at up to 12 or 15 miles/hex. So there's no clear rule, it depends what you're aiming for. If you're just starting out I recommend trying 5 miles per hex, it seemed to give the best compromise between space and detail. Another option is to set a small sandbox, say 1 mile/hex or 25 mile-across, for low level play within a large 15 miles/hex, or 375 mile across, sandbox designed for mid to high level play.

Edit: With Rob Conley's Points of Light sandboxes I sometimes convert them from 5 miles/hex to 8 miles/hex. They are great examples for inspiration even if you don't use them as written.
 

I've started to brainstorm on some ideas but one thing that always throws me for a loop is how big "the map" should be. Obviously I'm not going to map out the whole world but is there a good rule of thumb for sizing the campaign area?
Here's Rob Conley's rendition of the original Outdoor Survival map. Here's what Gygax says in original D&D vol. III, The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures:
Underworld & Wilderness Adventures said:
The so-called Wilderness really consists of unexplored land, cities, and castles…Off-hand adventures in the wilderness are made on the OUTDOOR SURVIVAL playing board (explained below)…OUTDOOR SURVIVAL has a playing board perfect for general adventures…
Of course, nothing says that you have to use the Outdoor Survival map, or even one of similar scope. But something on that scale does provide a decent starting point, I think.

The second question is how detailed the scale should be. Should each hex represent 1 mile, 5 miles, 10 miles? Realistically, at what point will the world seem too "cluttered"?
5 miles is the traditional scale for this kind of map (the original D&D wilderness movement rates are given in numbers of 5 mile hexes). That scale seems to be good for "hex crawling," although that also depends on the method of travel. Travel by river or by flying can quickly cover many hexes.

There's a series of articles in Fight On that offers some advice and guidance on creating a wilderness (including stuff like how many towns and such). I don't remember exactly which issues, though. I think you can check out their tables of contents (as well as some sample pages) on Lulu, though.
 
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If your players are trekking through the wilderness, this formula might come in handy as a sighting guideline:

square root (1.5 * height in ft.) = horizon distance in miles
 

You've gotten some good advice so far. I especially like the idea of using a plastic hex grid overlay on a hand-drawn map. I've done that and it is very nice. It stops everyone from saying automatically "we've been through that hex!".

Even numbered miles for hexes break down easier for figuring out how far people can move, usually. So 6 miles is a good round figure.

You probably do want about a week's travel distance mapped in every direction. IF there are good roads in all directions, that can be quite a large distance. 20 miles travel a day with good mounts on a good road is not impossible. However, that assumes pretty focused travel.

Towns or villages will be no further than a day's walk apart. Market towns will be no further than two days brisk travel apart. Cities are a bit more variable, but probably no more than a week's walk between them. Less if there is frequent trade/good roads/resources.

People who don't travel much generally know only what is in their daily "zone of influence". They may have heard of things outside that area, but they'll be going on common gossip. Details can be QUITE wrong! More traveled folk will have a better idea of things in places they've been, but may still be quite wrong about what is just beyond it.

A monster's range depends on its mode of travel and diet. Herbivorous tree dwellers aren't going very far each day, most likely. Carnivorous flyers can move a tremendous distance in a few minutes. You just have to play it by ear. Mostly, a monster will influence the region for a day's travel (for him/it) around his lair.
 


First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.

From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in. Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds. This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.
 

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