Sacred Flame saving throw questions

[Otterscrubber]

1) Can Sacred Flame allow a death saving throw or just the "standard" saving throw vs effects and/or ongoing damage?

2) If you use sacred flame to allows a saving throw vs an effect, and that effect gets worse if you fail a saving throw, is there any protection against that or could you actually hasten an allies demise by granting a saving throw?

3) Are there any feats that can allow you to improve the saving throw bonus when you grant a saving throw via sacred flame?

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. No. You wouldn't want to do this anyway. There's a very limited upside (you need a natural 20) to wanting a saving throw here and very big downside.

2. Yes, the errata (or FAQ) says that a granted saving throw like you suggest does not in fact incur the penalties. Those penalties only apply after the normal save at the end of your turn. The other example is the Warden ability. If he fails at the beginning of his turn, no big deal.

3. I don't know.

 

[Larrin]

I disagree on 1) I think you can, and it would enjoy the same protection against failure as all other saving throws not made at the end of your turn. The death save is still a saving throw, is it not? Unless it says otherwise somewhere there is no reason to believe sacred flame can't grant one. if you succeed, no need to save on your turn, if you fail, try again at the end of your turn, no penalty.

 

[Ahrimon]

The 20 doesn't have to be natural. The book even says 20+. So if you could give a dying comrade +2 to their save, they could spend a healing surge on a natural 18+ for example.

 

[Otterscrubber]

1. No. You wouldn't want to do this anyway. There's a very limited upside (you need a natural 20) to wanting a saving throw here and very big downside.

2. Yes, the errata (or FAQ) says that a granted saving throw like you suggest does not in fact incur the penalties. Those penalties only apply after the normal save at the end of your turn. The other example is the Warden ability. If he fails at the beginning of his turn, no big deal.

3. I don't know.

As far as your answer to #1, there are some feats that add bonuses to death saving throws and it can be good to enable an ally to make one. Was your answer no as in it's not allowed by the rules or no it's usually not a good idea. Cuz sometimes it is a good idea and I just want to know if it's an option.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I agree with Larrin on #1, that it is possible and do and you are protected from making a bad roll.

For #3 there's Shared Perseverance, but you have to be human.

 

[Stalker0]

The 20 doesn't have to be natural. The book even says 20+. So if you could give a dying comrade +2 to their save, they could spend a healing surge on a natural 18+ for example.

There are some crazy builds out there to get like a +10 bonus on death saves, so its not chump

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

2. Yes, the errata (or FAQ) says that a granted saving throw like you suggest does not in fact incur the penalties. Those penalties only apply after the normal save at the end of your turn. The other example is the Warden ability. If he fails at the beginning of his turn, no big deal.

Can anyone direct me to this errata?

 

[Shin Okada]

Rules Compendium P.98 (and article in Dragon Magazine 373) says,

Failed Saving Throw Sometimes an effect changes when a target fails a saving throw against it. The new effect, specified in a "Failed Saving Throw" entry, occurs only after the target has finished making all its saving throws at the end of its turn. The effect does not change if the target fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.

So, there may be 2 issues,

1) Regarding this issue, I am not sure if there is an update or FAQ which directly update or clarify the rules in core books. So, some DM may not use the suggestions in Rules Compendium or Dragon Magazine.

2) Death saving throw rule is not using "Failed Saving Throw" in the text. So, this update/FAQ may not help in this case.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I disagree on 1) I think you can, and it would enjoy the same protection against failure as all other saving throws not made at the end of your turn. The death save is still a saving throw, is it not? Unless it says otherwise somewhere there is no reason to believe sacred flame can't grant one. if you succeed, no need to save on your turn, if you fail, try again at the end of your turn, no penalty.

Why wouldn't you roll at the end of your turn? It's not a "save ends" or anything so you still have to roll at the end of each turn. The rules quote is "A successful saving throw. A save ends an effect that includes one of the following notations in parentheses: “save ends,” “save ends both,” or “save ends all.”" None of those apply. Moreover, the text does not equal the normal failed saving throw entry so it doesn't apply to the same rules update. It says "Lower than 10: You slip one step closer to death. If you get this result three times before you take a rest, you die." That's it, if you get that result three times whenever you roll it at the end of your turn or sooner, you're dead.

In other words, the death saving throw is not success/failure, it's a result.