D&D 5E Rules Question - Alert (Feat): +5 vs Advantage

[connerdavidm]

Just out of curiosity: what happens to the math if I grant Advantage on initiative, instead of a static +5, for the Alert feat? Is that too good, too bad, or similar enough?

I ask, because I like the Advantage mechanic, but also seems more consistent with the ruleset. The static bonus sounds like a powerful magic item, which is what I though Advantage was supposed to address by providing bounded accuracy instead of static buffs.

It might be obvious, but I'm not seeing it. And I know that whatever works for table is the right answer, but wanted to see if it would affect the math too dramatically.

Thank you for any advice!

 

[Kobold Stew]

The problem with taking this approach is that it weakens the feat. Advantage can be cancelled by circumstances that grant disadvantage (darkness or mist, for example). The choice to give the static bonus for the feat is to ensure that this player is always more alert than his or her peers.

 

[Hriston]

Well, a static +5 guarantees inclusion in the top 3/4 of the initiative count whereas advantage does not.

 

[Kobold Stew]

p.s. welcome to the boards!

 

[connerdavidm]

Thank you!

I guess its less the math and more the consistency that the +5 becomes important. Otherwise, it would be too easy to cancel out with any kind of disadvantage (credit to Mr. Stew).

 

[Kobold Stew]

For what its worth, I'm currently building a character (Int 9, Wis 10) and considering the Observant feat which gives a static +5 bonus to perception and investigation rolls. The feat would not even be considered if it (only) gave advantage.

 

[guachi]

The average bonus for advantage if you roll is 3.825. Adding 5 means you can get rolls above a 20 (obviously) but that is not as useful as it looks as once you have the highest initiative it doesn't matter how much you beat them by.

However, if you look at the odds of rolling any given number or higher, adding 5 is never worse than using advantage. The closest it gets is both have the same odds of rolling an 11 or higher. The odds are almost identical for every number up through 14 excepting, of course, that you can't roll a 1-5 when you add 5. Although with advantage you only have a 6.2% chance of rolling a 1-5 anyway.

The numbers are quite different when you get to a 20, the max for advantage. You have a 9.8% chance for a 20 with advantage but a 30% chance for a 20 or higher with a +5.

In other words, both are basically the same for any roll from poor to good but +5 is much better odds of getting great rolls.

 

[Unwise]

<wow, 6 replies in the time it took me to type this hehe, talk about e;fb>

+5 is more powerful. Advantage is at best equal to +5, but in situations with very little or very high chance of success, its useful drops off sharply.

The Alert feat is also designed to allow acts of speed that normal people simply cannot match. Think of any gunslinger movie, the guy leaves his gun holstered, knowing that he will outdraw any of these thugs threatening him. Think of a samurai, particularly Lone Wolf and Cub. His iaijutsu quickdraw combined with eyes that see everything allow him to get the drop on any would be ambushers.

By using advantage, you would nerf the ability slighly as mentioned, but also keep it within 'bounded' realms. I actually think the intent is sometimes to break the bounded rolls, to make something reliable and preternatural. There are some mathematical implications about what difference this makes for those with high dex vs those without. Also, do you ever give advantage on initiative rolls? I sometimes do, if somebody says they are watching the door, or are guarding a corridor, then they get advantage on initiative as the enemies come around the corner. This would not stack with the proposed alertness change.

 

[abirdcall]

I disagree.

+5 doesn't guarantee a high initiative.

Advantage is still useful if you have disadvantage too as it cancels the disadvantage.

The difference with advantage is that it can't stack with more advantage which is part of why the mechanic is so good.

 

[guachi]

I disagree.

+5 doesn't guarantee a high initiative.

Advantage is still useful if you have disadvantage too as it cancels the disadvantage.

The difference with advantage is that it can't stack with more advantage which is part of why the mechanic is so good.

I'd still rather have +5 with disadvantage. I can't ever roll lower than a 6. I'd have a 25% chance of less than a 6 if I had ad/disad canceling each other.