Roleplaying Games Are Improv Games

Since the beginning, going all the way back to Braunstein, roleplaying games (RPGs) have had at their core, most often unintentionally, an improv game. Why this is is pretty simple to understand: if the game allows an open ended possibility space, its fundamentally incorporating improv. Its that spontaneous, open ended interactivity that, in its best form, begets a completely emergent story that couldn't merely be told, it had to be played. Thats the core of what Improv is, and so too are RPGs.

The issue of course is, not everybody sees it that way nor has identified these games as being such, even after 50+ years of discourse. Worst yet, many will have a very prejudicial mindset, rooted in what they believe improv to be, and will reject it outright. Others still will have their own ideologies and idiosyncratic beliefs about RPGs, which will naturally come into conflict with this idea, and will summarily reject it for its nonconformity.

All three of these are, I argue, essentially the same issue, and rooted in a simple explanation. No one noticed, and most don't want to. So the questions that come up are pretty clear: What makes RPGs improv games, and why does that matter?

Understanding Improv
Before we can answer the first question, what bears scrutiny is what is being referred to as improv.

The common assumption with Improv is that its in reference to Improv Comedy, with may be some knowledge that not all improv is comedic in nature. This is where that prejudicial attitude tends to come in, as improv comedy, as fun and entertaining as it can be, is kind of down low on the totem pole of entertainment, perhaps only slightly better than street magic, and for many in the RPG space, a want and desire for more serious gaming has been pretty evergreen throughout the last 50 years, and this certainly doesn't help alleviate the preconceptions.


As it happens, though, Improv is not all improv comedy. Its not even always improv theater, for that matter, despite the history behind it.

Improv in general has its roots in American Theater, with Viola Spolin's development of what she called "Theater Games". Most people tend to have a cultural idea of an actor or entertainer doing weird noises and other seemingly odd idiosyncratic things before they go on stage or camera; theater games are a more generally useful form of this, as they were originally intended as an early form of Gamification, where instead of intellectually teaching Actors how to Act, it is learned through play.

Why this works for Actors is that Acting as a skill is at its best when the actor can be fully present as who they are depicting, not pulling how they behave from a pre-planned source but from spontaneous intuition. While actors can do a lot to still pre-plan aspects of their characters (aka have a script), in order for the acting to feel authentic requires the spontaneous to come out of them; they have to be real, in other words, elsewise, the illusion of acting is lost pretty readily.

And this, as an aside, is why writers are so important, and why even the best actors can end up with absolute trainwreck performances, and why they can sometimes be the only the shining light in whats otherwise a disaster. Robert Downey Jr. As Iron Man, for example, has pretty much never failed to be compelling, even when the film he's a part of isn't all that great; no one can say he was the issue with Iron Man 2, or that if only he was a better actor, the twist of Iron Man 3 might not have tanked the film.

But here's the key about this history and why it's being mentioned: During her lifetime, Viola Spolin received a lot of critique towards the idea that her techniques qualified as Games at all.

In time, we now know that of course they were games, as plenty of deliberately designed improv games have been born out of these original theater games, and many more are just plain brand new. This initial criticism though is important, because theater games aren't the only games that have had the critique that they "are not" games thrown at them, and a certain strain of RPGs that became popular in the 2010s were and still are big targets for this critique. We'll be coming back to this later.

Narrative Improv
So, as mentioned, there is more than one kind of Improv. While the term Improv Theater broadly encompasses most types people conventionally associate with the term, Improv now extends to conventional games, so Improv isn't just theater anymore regardless of how one feels about it in relation to RPGs. But, even within Improv Theater, we see no monolith. Improv Comedy is of course a staple, but we also broadly have Dramatic and Musical Improv, amongst dozens of niche, avant garde examples you can find if you dig deep enough.

But a key type of improv is Narrative Improv. The reason why is because this type is what RPGs follow on from, intentional or otherwise. What Narrative Improv is can be understood through the lens of "Forms". Shortform, Longform, and Narrative are generally speaking the three "levels", so to speak, of Improv.


Shortform is where Improv Comedy makes its bread, and as its name implies, involves scenes, skits, or what have you that are very short relative to session length. Minutes at a time at most.

Longform is where the Dramatic and Musical forms tend to be, but Comedy can often go longform as well. This is where we have a number of vignettes or scenes throughout the session, most often disconnected but self-referential at times. Up to an hour or two at a time.

Narrative continues the trend, as its name implies, is specifically tuned to tell a linear story through improv. Narrative tends to be the longest, up to several hours at a time, giving the performers time to develop the things that make up said story.

This handy dandy Blog covers the general idea of Narrative Improv and what it requires to function and, in the end, bring about an, at least somewhat, coherent story.

An Aside: What is a "Game" Anyway?
Before I continue, I think it prudent to discuss what a game actually is, and in particular why improv is a game.

In a nutshell, a game is a structured form of play, and play is itself a an intrinsically motivated activity pursued for recreational pleasure and enjoyment.

What's, sadly, often still contentious today is that games are also art, and more specifically, are an artistic medium for storytelling. While many I think can understand that on a surface level, not many get how games differentiate themselves from other storytelling mediums, but also tend to neglect what games count as being able to not just tell stories through, but generate them.

Games as a medium are all about interaction. If there is no interaction, there isn't a game. This is foundational to what sets games apart from writing, filmmaking, and music in terms of storytelling, as the medium used to its fullest potential will allow a story to emerge through interaction. Sometimes this can be very heavy handed and forced as part of the game's structure. Most video and board games do this.

But, this story can also emerge entirely organically from the interactions the game's structure provides for. In video games, games like Dwarf Fortress, Rimworld, or Wildermyth are exemplary of this kind of "storymaking", but less intuitive is that multiplayer games are engaging these same dynamics.

While a given round of Call of Duty or Rainbow Six Siege isn't necessarily the same kind of story as, say, the Catcher in the Rye or Interstellar (2014), it is a story, and one that for many is quite compelling, if not more so. Most gamers can probably recall a number of times where the experience of play was so memorable that it sticks with you; this was a story being made, and your remembrance of it is how the narrative of that story comes together.

But even more unintuitive, sports are some of the most prominent kinds of storymaking games we have. The 1932 World Series, culminating in that legendary call by Babe Ruth where he pointed to the stands and knocked the ball out of the park right where he said he was going to put it, wouldn't be the legend that it is if the game of baseball couldn't make stories. Babe Ruth doesn't have a curse named after him if he hadn't become something larger than life, and what are characters in a story, if not exactly that?

The Miracle on Ice was the culmination of a single, dominating hockey team in the Olympics being faced with just the right team to defeat them in a legendary upset; one can argue this story, this legend, was so compelling it went on, alongside Rocky as the protoype, to inspire every underdog sports movie ever made, from the Mighty Ducks to Invictus. Games, some say, are not art? Total excrement.

But now, coming back to Improv, we have to think of it in these terms. Is improv a game? Of course it is. Improv is nothing but interaction, and whether its a short comedic bit or a long, drawn out dramatic narrative, a story is being made in that interaction. All Games, of any type, are fundamentally story generators, and this is born out even when you isolate singular mechanics; there is no compelling mechanic that does not, through interaction with it, tell a story.

This aside is over now, but I do want to pose this question for you as you keep reading: If improv is a game, then surely, two different games can be combined?

Connecting the Dots
Now that we have all this primer stuff out of the way, lets connect the dots here. What makes RPGs an Improv Game?

I mentioned at the start that an easy shortcut to understanding it is by thinking of what RPGs fundamentally do. They present you an open-ended possibility space, and ask you "What do you do?" That interaction is where improv comes in, and there isn't an RPG that has ever existed that did not or does not do this.

But, this isn't terribly specific, and as I spoke to, there's an awful lot of skeptics out there. What I'll do, then, is link concepts together. Going off of the Blog I referenced earlier, we'll link each necessity for Narrative Improv to its equivalents in RPGs, and then I'm going to expound on why this matters, which will help to support these connections.

The Story Spine
The first step the blog identifies for Narrative Improv is what it calls the story spine. This is essentially meant to provide structure to the session, and ensure it doesn't strictly meander off without a satisfying, or at least obvious, conclusion. The author relates this in fairy tale terms, as wanting to have your "Once Upon a Time" to your "Happily Ever After", and everything inbetween.


Even though in recent times, particularly the past decade and a half or so, they have fallen out of favor, I do not think it is a coincidence the idea of a Module or Adventure Path became so ubiquitous in the hobby.

After all, the game fundamentally presents this open-ended possibility space, and while some activities within, like Combat, may have an obvious and intuitive beginning, middle, and end, the greater overall experience might not be so obvious. As has been said in the zeitgeist, most gamers aren't also actors or novelists. Hence, the idea of introducing a means of structuring a story into the experience becomes an obvious development, and lo and behold, we have Adventures we can play.

These APs and Modules are the effective equivalent of a Story Spine in the improv context. They do do more than a Story Spine would, often dictating a loose plot amongst other things, but mechanically they serve the same purpose. They give structure to what (could) otherwise be a completely open ended space, and thus not only lets the story begin, but also ensures it will have a clear conclusion.

Normalcy
The next key item is what the blog calls Normalcy. In a nutshell, the establishment of the who, what, whens, and where's of a story. As they relate in number 5, in improv this often has to come from rather clunkily introducing things as play progresses, and the ultimate point is that, even if has to be clunky, establishing these ideas is key to making the narrative work.

But what the blog doesn't talk about is that these details can also be established ahead of time, rather than directly in the improv. This is most often done through prompting, but depending on what you're going for, you can establish quite a lot ad hoc if you want to really focus the improv in a specific direction.

So where does the equivalent in RPGs for this come in? Easy! The Game itself, including, if it doesn't already have one, the Setting you introduce to it.

The setting of course contextualizes the game into a concrete reality, much like how narrative improv could set up props to use and even full on stage dressing, and the Game Rules provide structure to how interactions play out, most often focusing heavily on things that would be impractical or impossible to play out through improv (re: Combat), but as we've seen, you can also compact that out if one doesn't want the game to focus in on it. Likewise, plenty of examples of using Game Rules to govern the act of talking, despite the fact it comes naturally to most people and isn't at all impractical to do.

Some games, it must be said, don't need greatly elaborate rule systems. Some, like FKR, can do with nothing more than a simple conflict resolution system, and all others simply come in through Improv. Fiasco takes that a step farther, and pushes itself more towards being a conventional narrative improv game, rather than whats traditionally (or indie-ly, if we want to distinguish) considered an RPG.

The key here to remember, is that question I posed about the combination of two games. While necessity isn't really a thing in terms of whether or not a game should go with a "crunchy" rule system, it poses another question: if we can do minimalism, why not do it?

Identify the Protagonist
Our next key here is pretty straightforward, and its easy to see how the benefits translate over to RPGs. We're not merely identifying which humans we're calling the protagonists, we're identifying the goals of their characters, and this is the catalyst that brings a story out of the proceeding interactions as players try to achieve this goal.

This, ultimately, is why game mechanics even in their barest form tell stories. There's a goal, there's interaction, and theres a clear beginning, middle, and end to the interaction.

Something very key to note here though, that goes unstated in the blog, is that this identification also identifies what kind of protagonist we're dealing with, in essence, defining the genre of our story. We might recognize that a character's name is Bob, and that his goal is to rescue his sister, but its going to be a very different story between Swashbuckling Pirate Bob, Fanciful Shakespearean Bob, and Gritty Action Movie Bob. The How of the story, if you will.

This identification of genre is pretty important. Over in video game land, there was and still is a lot of discourse over the question of emergent narrative and how best to foster it, but at this point its more a question of engineering than of theoreticals. If you want a narrative to become emergent, you need these same elements that we identify in Narrative Improv. Goals, and a clear structure that tells us when it starts and when it ends.

While Video games pre-Holodeck spontaneous generation will, I think, always struggle with making something that is as fully emergent as improv allows for, we can see how such structures can be built. Ken Levine, of Bioshock fame, has a great GDC Talk on his take for this, which to toot my own horn, was an inspiration for me in my own design, where I adapted the ideas for that system into something very playable on tabletop.

But, that aside, what the identification of genre tells us, in relation to RPGs, is that these games can do quite a lot to establish genre, and if they can do that, they can also explore ideas related to narratives, and provide the means to foster them through interaction.

What is the thematic premise of a PBTA style game, if not precisely the same thing Improvisers do to guide and focus their narrative? Why do we instinctively know how to approach a dungeon crawling game, and why do we sometimes go wrong if a game breaks from our expectations? Makes you think...

Clear Consequences
Once upon a time, I used to get into overlong internet arguments over certain strain of video game RPGs, specifically The Elder Scrolls series and greater Bethesda gravity well, and the perceived de-RPGification of their games over time. One of the key points I always argued for why newer games, like Skyrim, Fallout, or Starfield had lost their roleplaying luster? The lack of consequences. Go figure.

The benefits of consequences, particularly in narrative improv, are pretty obvious in providing that narrative momentum to keep it moving forward, and prevent situations where things stall out, and nothing happens.

Now, I'd hope if you've read this far that me saying that hit you like a ton of bricks, and if it didn't, then I'll just point out that these two issues are an often contentious issue thats been reoccurring in RPG discourse for a very long time, and entire flavors of RPG have sprung up around avoiding them specifically. I have a few more examples of this phenomenon that we'll be taking about...right now!

Why This Matters
So, now that we've identified that RPGs and Narrative Improv are very close to each other, so much so that there's clear parallels, the question remains: Why does this matter? What does recognizing this do to help us design new games, or just have more enjoyable experiences with these games?

Well, as we saw with the issue of Consequences, that particular problem in Improv manifests in Roleplaying Games, almost identical in fact, to its original Improv context. But whats really important, is that the solutions we can employ in Improv to solve this problem, carry through to roleplaying games. And whats more, this isn't the only example of Improv Problems manifesting in RPGs, and many of them already have spiffy new names.

Railroading
Perhaps the single most ubiquitous and contentious one is that of railroading. While it can be alright if one approaches it with consent, as after all, who'd buy Modules if railroading was a universal negative, most often the railroad is unwelcome.


The line where a railroad becomes unwelcome is, quite simply, that of consent, informed consent in particular. But, what is the unwelcome railroad of improv?

As we've mentioned, narrative improv can establish things ahead of time to focus it towards a particular genre or story, and one could squint and see this as an equivalent. But that's only true if we, in turn, consider the presence of game rules a railroad in of itself; some people do, as it happens. But, there's consent to it, so we can't strictly say either is unwelcome.

Where the unwelcome railroad comes in in Improv, is whats referred to as Blocking. Blocking is best defined as the disruption of the improvisational flow, principally caused by the unilateral rejection of a player's input by another. If I introduce the idea that you're my dad, and you reject it saying you're not my dad, but a cop whose arresting me, this is blocking.

But, the key with Blocking is that it is contextual. If we're trying to be funny, that same interaction might not be blocking at all. If we've agreed ahead of time we want to explore the nature of police brutality on the mentally ill, we also wouldn't consider the rejection Blocking.

Likewise, if what we're doing is having a conversation, and I tell you to piss off, this isn't Blocking in of itself. The interaction has to continue, after all, and there's still context to it. If its been established that I'm sitting in a bar, and you stroll up asking about where to buy some drugs, of course I'm gonna tell you to get lost, you're a narc.

This doesn't mean you can't keep trying, and you should if I'm the only other person in the scene. If I continue to be obstinate with no shift in the narrarive, only then am I blocking.

Now, carrying these ideas back over to RPGs, we can understand how Game Rules and Setting are not blocking, nor, for that matter, is not getting what you want. But, as always, its contextual. Its one thing to end up on the undesirable end of a resolution mechanic, but its another entirely to be told you cannot go left when there's no established reason you can't. (Or worse yet, to be under an illusion that you had a choice in the first place, which is something thats actually unique to the improv dynamics of RPGs, which we'll also be talking about later on)

Since the late 80s, there's been a trend in RPGs where there's a desire to tell this long form epic narrative, and this can be identified as the general source of where this dynamic came from, as such clearly constructed narratives go quite a bit beyond the relatively innocuous nature of Modules or Adventure Paths, because its often imposed without the consent of all involved.

This basic issue of consent is pretty endemic to why railroads are bad, but also not bad. Consent is also pretty key to understanding why certain kinds of RPGs end up being so contentious.

There's a recurring refrain with PBTA style games, and others that followed out of the same design spaces, that you have to "get them" before you'll really enjoy them. It this because these games are some higher art form that only the enlightened will understand? Is it because they're so poorly designed that you'd have to trick yourself to get it?

I don't think so, in either case, even if overlong internet arguments can make it seem that way. I think it ultimately comes down to consent, because these particular kinds of RPGs, especially in the PBTA style, are enforcing a very specific railroad of thematic premise. It doesn't always produce a feeling of unwelcomeness, but its pretty normal to see how blocking manifests; its an expected part of these games to stop the game, disrupt the flow, and hash out how things work out, either in the narrative specifically or due to some mechanics issue, if not both. This is where the "Writer's Room" idea comes from, as this process often feels less like two improvisers smoothing over a hiccup and more like you're writing the scene.

Its quite unlike the plot railroad of more traditional games, but the effect is the same. If you aren't consenting, its going to feel unwelcome, and it can take a lot of effort to get to a point where you can have informed consent. Doesn't mean people can't just do it anyway, but it does mean accessibility is pretty low.

Why that is is a bit much to get into if we want to get analytical (particularly given this author doesn't beleive its an inherent problem, as not all examples have it), but I of course think it comes down to what this essay is talking about: these games are no better at recognizing whats at their core than traditional games are, despite doing a lot to incorporate improv solutions into their design, if unintentionally, and this impacts not just accessibility but enjoyment. The whole hobby is niche for a reason, after all, and I don't think its rooted in RPGs just being nerdy or geeky.

The Many Faces of Blocking
Now, the plot and thematic railroads are the most obvious ones we can point to in terms of how blocking manifests in RPGs. But there are quite a few more out there we can point to.

The Adventuring Day or the Martial/Caster Disparity of 5e DND, for example, are great examples of blocking coming from the game itself.

But less intuitive is that Players can actually Block their GMs, especially when the expectation was in fact set to follow a loose narrative, by refusing to let them participate and not differring to their direction. Shenanigans is of course innocuous in a vaccuum, but not if your group spends multiple sessions doing anything but engage the things the GM prepared for the group to play when that was supposed to be the point.

Another manifestation, also unintuitive, is that of Rule Zero; the humans blocking the Game itself by deleting rules and hacking it up.

Now, the thing about Blocking, is that it isn't fully negative. It isn't this terrible thing you're just not noticing. Much of the time, blocking is pretty invisible and doesn't impact the experience in any obvious way, and for some people, its manifestations just aren't associated with anything strictly bad.

A GM can be completely unphased by players who just screw around session after session, and the game of course has no choice but to suffer in silence, but it often still makes the issue known (as we see in DND when later editions start dismantling certain systems for no reason, like exploration, only for them to feel completely superflous). And of course, there's no shortage of people who continue to play 5e despite its myriad problems in this area.

The Unwelcome Extreme
Another good example we can point to of Improv problems in RPGs, is the unwelcome extreme. In Improv, this is when you push the scene so completely off the rails that it disrupts the flow; this isn't necessarily a matter of blocking, but it introduces the same disruptive effect.

That Guy is a pretty clear example that has become ubiquitous in the zeitgeist of the hobby. They don't necessarily block anyone elses input (though the varient Edgelords often do), but they are pretty clearly unwelcome in what they inject into the experience.

Another, coming from certain games, is the issue of HP Bloat, where the unwelcome extreme is in how a fight gets drawn out for no real benefit other than, may be, a perceived minimum amount of time spent that is already met. Sometimes this can be imposed unilaterally, as in its rooted in a weird hangup on part of the game designer, or perhaps the GM.

But it can also be imposed because the mechanical design of the game has reached a point where the amount of possible interactions would preclude full participation by all players. If a fight is over in just a few turns, what does that mean for the players more than a few turns away? Its a hard circle to square, but this handily segues into the next topic.

The Duality, and How we Might Make and Enjoy RPGs Better
Now, there's likely a question brewing by this point, that of how RPGs are improv games, when they do X,Y, or Z that is so utterly different from any given example of improv?

The answer here isn't complex. RPGs still are improv games; improv is the first and foremost mechanic after all. But they are also something else. We often see the distinction put as being both "RP" and "G", with roleplay as the bespoke implementation of improv dynamics, and the G as, well, everything else. What we would actually call "G" is kind of muddy, because over time Roleplaying Game as a descriptor has become so entrenched that its hard to use anything else.

What I would argue though is that the answer is that its a Playstyle Reinforcement game, combined with Improv. If you've been following along, I'd hope this just instantaneously clicked, but if not, lets recap:

1. Improv is a game
2. In order for Improv to work, players have to Interact with each other.
3. Improv must have Consequences, and must have Structure.
4. Game Rules are akin to pre-established Who, What, When, Where's, and even How's in Improv.


The Interaction between Players, Consequences, and the Players reactions is the answer here; this is a Gameplay Loop. Each Players individual Style is being reinforced by every other player and the emergent consequences of their collective choices. This loop is what produces the spontaneity that makes improv a compelling experience to engage in.

So, we already understand that this is how improv works, but where does "G" come into this?

Easy. The Game is a Player.

It's a wild thought, isn't it? But, think about it. What does the Game in RPGs do, if not provide Consequences? Well, they also React the same way Players do. Are the Moves of PBTA style games not reacting to the improvisations of tbe players?

Understanding this is the lynchpin of this entire essay. The Game is a participant in the Improv game, just as the GM and the (colloquial) Players are. The question this begets then, is what do we actually do with this information?

And that truly is the question. I personally have found that through this understanding I can actually get into pretty much any RPG I can get my hands on (short of ones that are just boring or rote anyway, but thats a separate issue), because now I pretty much cannot approach these games without informed consent of what I'm getting into.

I once said that Ironsworn and Fellowship were the only PBTA style games I could get into, and while its still true, as most of these games are just not what I'm particularly interested in, the reason why is because much more so than other games in this type, I could understand and consent to what they were doing. They align well with what I tend to most prefer narratively, and mechanically both games have fun toys.

Which, I'll say, is pretty key: the ability of the G to be inherently fun in of itself, even if stripped bare of any thematic premise. In other words, I can just play, and its fun, and I still get a story at the end as a kicker. This I think is important to understand not just why some people bounce off of those particular games, and why the critique that they "are not" games comes about, but also why recognizing the improv game is vital.

For one, these games still have it, and like all other instances of it, it is still as fun as ever. There's nothing about how these games work that makes improv not fun. As such, they are in fact games, because the improv game makes up a huge part of the experience. Almost all of it, as a matter of fact.

The G part of them, however, isn't always particularly compelling on its own, and this I think is a misstep in design. But this also goes in the other direction, for all its faults, the G of DND5e is fun and obviously compelling to millions of people, and yet, as we see when we go look at the criticisms of the game, the RP can be quite lacking for many. There's unfortunately many who are consider that half of the game so closed off that the instances of it that exists are labeled as bad things; DM Fiat in response to Improvised Actions, for example.

And it has to be said, these issues run so deep that there's a recurring idea that playing DND, or even RPGs in general, is something you don't learn from the book but by way of Oral Tradition, and this has been going on since Gygax and Arneson. For all the good things indie games have done to try and close the gap, that oral tradition persists into them. This isn't good, for while Improv ultimately has to be learned through experience, there's no reason a book can't get you started.

So, to bring this altogether, the key idea here is that recognizing the improv game can help us make better games; games that don't just recognize they're utilizing improv, but integrate properly with the reinforcement game that was constructed, and use both sides to their fullest potential. Games where all these common issues, whether we look at them as Improv problems or RPG problems, just never occur, and where the game can finally be approachable in a real, tangible way.

How that's done, is up to the would be designer. I personally have had a lot of ideas for how to approach this, and my game has been completely morphed by it. While unfinished, as the scope of the game is just quite vast given the genres I'm blending (epic fantasy + slice of life) and the depth I want Labyrinthian to support even more so, I've seen the ideas play out in real play, and they work.

I came up with a Tactical Improv system that, not only really makes you feel like you're in action movie, but integrates the depth of a Tactics game with the open-ended possibility space of Improv, entirely seamlessly, and this same blending is being carried through to other aspects of the game to bring it together as a unified whole, blending heavily systemic design, ala Immersive Sim video games, with improv.

But, I don't think my ideas are the only way, and admittedly much of the time my ideas are pretty specific to nature of my game, but even so, whats key is that I'm always approaching the game from a perspective of merging Improv with Systems, and ensuring they not only don't come into conflict with each other, but interact. In building my game I'm not just cobbling together what I think is cool, I'm building a Player that can go toe to toe with real life humans in an improv game.

It also goes deeper than that though, and there's a wide world of things yet to discuss here, because after all, there are two other participants here besides the game itself, the GM and the Players, and designing for them is just as important. Developing real gameplay for the GM in particular has been a pretty pressing revelation I've been exploring with my own designs, particularly due to the traditional nature of them as either dictating tyrant, benevolent or otherwise, or mere facilitator and referree, neither of which, in this author's opinion, is truly ideal.

Conclusion

In recognizing that roleplaying games are fundamentally improvisational games, we open the door to a deeper understanding and appreciation of both mediums. This realization underscores the importance of interaction, spontaneity, and collaborative storytelling inherent in RPGs. By viewing the game itself as an active participant—a player in the improvisational dynamic—we can design and engage with RPGs in ways that enhance both the gaming experience and the emergent narratives they produce.

Understanding the improvisational core of RPGs allows players to navigate common pitfalls with greater awareness, and lets us develop not just games that prevent them outright, but empowers players to work through it when it still happens. It emphasizes the need for consent, clear communication, and mutual support in creating a cohesive and enjoyable story. In doing so, we craft game systems that not only coexist with improvisation but actively facilitate it, leading to more accessible and fulfilling games.

Ultimately, embracing the improvisational nature of RPGs demystifies the art of roleplaying, making it more approachable for newcomers and enriching for veterans. It reminds us that improvisation is not an esoteric skill reserved for performers but a natural form of play inherent in all of us. All it takes is an environment that fosters that spontaneity and creativity, and games can, in fact, provide thst space, but only if we know what we're playing with.

As Viola Spolin eloquently put it:

Everyone can act. Everyone can improvise. Anyone who wishes to can play in the theater and learn to become 'stage-worthy.'

We learn through experience and experiencing, and no one teaches anyone anything. This is as true for the infant moving from kicking and crawling to walking as it is for the scientist with his equations.

If the environment permits it, anyone can learn whatever he chooses to learn; and if the individual permits it, the environment will teach him everything it has to teach. 'Talent' or 'lack of talent' have little to do with it.

Embracing RPGs as improv games invites us all to participate more fully, play more joyfully, and create, not just tell, stories that resonate long after the game is over.
 

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Unless you're talking about GMless games, your regular assertions that the principles of improv inherently apply to RPGs are on incredibly shaky and unproven ground. To be more specific, the GM-player dynamic totally wrecks that framing.

But even setting that aside (which I don't think we actually can), what's your goal in repeatedly pushing this overall point? Are you imagining that even 0.5 percent of the people reading these posts are deeply invested students of improv? I mean, improv, now? What decade are we in? Who's Line isn't even on the air anymore. UCB has been creatively and financially gutted. I suppose AP casts are pretty heavy on improvisers, but APs don't generally care all that much about game/design theory, game mechanics, or even improv theory.

I'm just a little mystified at all this effort related to such an ultra-niche topic, when the whole thing is based on a connection that, try as you might want it to, doesn't really exist. Until Del Close rises from the grave and invents a new improv form where he's yes-and-ing and no-but-ing improv troupes in the moment, acting as a central referee and improviser-of-supporting-characters, basically a supreme troupe leader with special powers, you're inventing the axiom upon which all of your arguments are based.
 

I don't think you have to go that far. The GM is a player*. Strictly speaking, she is the only player the others have to interact with.

Its more of a way of framing that a lot of things a GM does can just be baked into the design, but it has to be done in a way that doesn't just manifest the same old problems in a different way nor require undue buy-in from players to get into.

Unless you're talking about GMless games, your regular assertions that the principles of improv inherently apply to RPGs are on incredibly shaky and unproven ground. To be more specific, the GM-player dynamic totally wrecks that framing.

Not really; I think you're just picking up on, but not realizing, what the essay is saying in that RPGs aren't designed with improv in mind despite integrating the dynamics. The game often playing third fiddle while either the GM or the Players have a disproportionate share of control doesn't mean RPGs aren't improv games, just that they're kind of cruddily designed ones.

That in turn is what I get into with consent; a person can consent to a cruddy improv dynamic, and in RPGs this has become the de facto means by which the hobby operates.

But even setting that aside (which I don't think we actually can), what's your goal in repeatedly pushing this overall point? Are you imagining that even 0.5 percent of the people reading these posts are deeply invested students of improv? I mean, improv, now? What decade are we in? Who's Line isn't even on the air anymore. UCB has been creatively and financially gutted. I suppose AP casts are pretty heavy on improvisers, but APs don't generally care all that much about game/design theory, game mechanics, or even improv theory.

You may not have intended it, but this is what I was talking about with regards to being prejudicial towards the idea of improv. You really ought to just let that baggage go, and as said, not take it so seriously.

I'm just a little mystified at all this effort related to such an ultra-niche topic

I do sum up the overall point in the essay: better games and easier enjoyment.

But something that might help contextualize why this was written is that it is, in part, a rebuttal to what I uncharitably refer to as mastabatory RPG theorizing. Much of that stuff is just trying to put names to things that can be identified much more simply in already existing nomenclature, and its all too often wrapped up in a thick toxic veneer of ideology rather than any serious analysis of where the dynamics in RPGs come from and why.

Beyond that, it also just relates the baseline philosophy Im following in my own game design in ensuring the only way the dynamics can break down is if by human intervention, and not because the game was inadvertently designed in such a way that the humans have to make up for it. This approach works, but not everybody gets what I'm trying to do.
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
The stuff on games as story generators reminds me of the Story Machines series of videos.


I think the idea of games as story generators is a good idea. Given a set of systems, the resulting play can generate a series of events that can be turned into a story. However, I balk at describing games generally as a storytelling medium because it assumes the consequent (that the story generator properties of games are why they are played), but it’s easy to find examples of games that are played for other reasons (competition, challenge, etc).

Particularly in the RPG space, it’s common to find claims that RPGs are about group storytelling. I particularly dislike the claim in this space because it either uses a definition of “storytelling” that is so broad that it’s not very meaningful (that the game generates a fiction without having anything to say about authorship, audience, structure, etc), or it’s actually incorporating the speaker’s unstated biases about what constitutes correct RPG play.

⁂​

Regarding the section on railroading, the aside about PbtA games seems unnecessary. It’s true that they focus on a specific premise (which is fine), but they’re not the only games that to do that. Fiasco was already mentioned, and once you pick a playset, play is focused on that playset. It would be difficult to completely abandon it because the structure of Fiasco is going to force you to respond to what is happening according to the playset. Another example might be journaling games like Thousand Year Old Vampire.

⁂​

I found the use of “Playstyle Reinforcement” a bit confusing. There’s a separate pattern called “Playing Style Reinforcement” described by Adams and Dormans (in Game Mechanics: Advanced Game Design, which you introduced to me) that is about avatar customization. This usage appears to be different from that usage. Is there a better way to describe this for clarity?

⁂​

Otherwise, I found this post helpful for understanding what you mean when you talk about “improv game”. However, I’m still not convince about treating the game as a player.

You ask, “What does the Game in RPGs do, if not provide Consequences?” My answer would be: the Game provides structure and procedures of play; players provide Consequences. The Game on its own doesn’t provide Consequences because it doesn’t do anything. It’s just a text (or video or etc). Much in the way that the actors in Whose Line Is It Anyway? have to do something, the players in an RPG have to actually play the game. If the MC in Apocalypse World is not framing provocative scenes, it doesn’t matter what Baker has to say on the matter in the game’s rules.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Supporter
@Emberashh

As a fellow occasional essayist, I enjoyed your exploration of the topic. I think that you will get some pushback because (1) improv is kind of a pop culture punchline and (2) a lot of people (who usually don't know any better) will call "indie" games- whether they are FKR, rules-lite, narrative, or story games- "bad improv" as an insult.

That said- I've also noted the line from Braunstein on down, and that the space for "free play" or the "Arnesonian Space" or whatever you want to call it is essential, and that it can be called (as you explore) improv.

I think that there are a lot of games that rely on "improv" skills- some are more codified improv by rules, some are more codified by consistency with genre or shared fiction, but understanding the rules and assumptions behind improv is helpful to engaging in this play, and that a lot of the players of these games are actually using improv heuristics even if they are not aware of it.
 

Lidgar

Gongfarmer
I certainly think Critical Roll and it's ilk are a form of semi-scripted improv (how scripted you think they are is up to you).

How much "improv" actually happens at a game table varies widely I suspect. There's the more traditional improv associated with "acting" during role play, and then there's the critical thinking/problem solving elements that require strategic or creative approaches, which can be considered a type of intellectual "improv".
 

However, I balk at describing games generally as a storytelling medium because it assumes the consequent (that the story generator properties of games are why they are played), but it’s easy to find examples of games that are played for other reasons (competition, challenge, etc).

I think this is definitely an issue at play here, but from my perspective its more that RPGs are a lot of things at once. I touch on it the idea of the Duality, but as you relate, it can go farther than that. I think Gloomhaven, among other games, is a good example of how you can pull these games to be more focused on those other motivations, and that wouldn't be the case if players couldn't approach RPGs from the desire to just focus on those aspects over others. In the same way, games that eschew what appeals to those players to focus on some other aspect are doing the same sort of thing.

I think there is a genuine middle ground between these two, though.

Fiasco was already mentioned, and once you pick a playset, play is focused on that playset. It would be difficult to completely abandon it because the structure of Fiasco is going to force you to respond to what is happening according to the playset.

I would argue Fiasco in particular is an exceptional case, given if you eschewed the dice mechanic, it wouldn't functionally be anything other than a pure improv game. And a very well designed one at that, to be clear; it actually is an example of the ideal the essay speaks to, but it enjoys that distinction because its only incorporating a single, very simplistic mechanical system, so it would've been remarkable if it somehow still managed to cause problems.

I found the use of “Playstyle Reinforcement” a bit confusing. There’s a separate pattern called “Playing Style Reinforcement” described by Adams and Dormans (in Game Mechanics: Advanced Game Design, which you introduced to me) that is about avatar customization. This usage appears to be different from that usage. Is there a better way to describe this for clarity?

Funnily enough we had that discussion before some months ago I believe. A more refined take is that, at a base level, we have improv dynamics, which is pretty easily understood through the idea of Follow the Follower: Someone starts, and you follow them, and they follow you, and you follow them, repeat until the sessions over (which can come in a lot of different forms, like the Story Spine). Its a back and forth feedback loop that keeps changing the gamestate, which in this instance we consider the fiction; the story we are telling.

When it comes to RPGs, Game Rules obviously intercede in this dynamic, and we have to think about how we reconcile that, right?

Not quite, because virtually all improv is fundamentally operating on some type of rule. Follow the Follower is a procedure, but often its not just that. The actual excercise that rule comes from involves a rule about mimicry; each Player needs to mimic the actions of all the other players, often with the caveat of doing More with each instance.

If someone coughs, you start hacking up a lung, that sort of thing. We can understand this as being a reinforcement of playstyle, because the feedback you receive is a reflection of how you play. If I begin a scene by playing the tragic orphan, vowing to avenge my parents, and you jump in as my well-to-do butler whose also a ninja cowboy astronaut badass willing to teach me everything you know, and then I take you up on that and become the hero known as Man, then we've reinforced how each of us played.

Now, in most cases, Improv games are pretty simplistic just like that exercise, doing no more than contextualizing the feedback between the players. But with RPGs, rules are typically not that simple, and they provide their own kind of feedback. As such, we have to recognize that RPGs, by way of hybridization, are iterating on the original dynamics. We don't just have Players, but GMs and, as I propose, the Game itself. We have to move from player to participant when we describe the improv dynamics involved, and we have to recognize the new dynamics introduced by the nature of these three different participants.

If you remember their machination diagrams, the way you can visualize the dynamic specific to RPGs, with regards to its difference from standard improv, is like this:

1000011504.jpg

Throughout play, we have this throughline of fiction being created ad infinitum, and we can understand this as the game state at any given time. The moment something in the fiction triggers the feedback loop (most often its the game defining when this occurs, but it can also happen by GM or Player choice), then ideally all three Participants begin to bounce off of each other as they resolve the loop, and inject back into the fiction a change in the game state.

But, as noted, these three Participants have different roles, which I think are self explanatory. The Players occupy the same space as they do in improv, and the Game Rules act as a fixed yet dynamic point of normalcy for the dynamics to revolve around; if you engage them, you're going to get feedback from them that you have to respond to. The GM meanwhile sits between the two, often bridging the other two roles together.

All three have to engage and acknowledge each other throughout play, and the contention tends to be that the game, intentionally or otherwise, doesn't, leaving the other two roles to become imbalanced. The reason why is because the game can be an equalizing participant in the inherent imbalance of a GM-Players relationship.

To relate it back to improv, its very much like having one Player dictating 80-95% of the show while the other 6 people on stage jump in at points the first player says, but with RPGs its not always necessarily because one player is just a tyrant, but because the game is so poorly designed they have to do a lot more to produce a coherent experience than they should have to, and this produces unwelcome dynamics that are noticeable by the other players. If that doesn't sound familiar, I laid out all the ways these manifest in the essay. (Not that I think you Kenada wouldn't get me, just for anyone else reading)

A game can be an equalizer, offloading a lot of what the GM does and allowing for a more equitable distribution across all three Participants, but in order for that to work, Players and GMs need to be primed to trust the game to do this.

To give a practical example, I'll just point to my game's Event system, as I've talked with you about before.

When you're travelling or otherwise exploring, the procedure of play expects you to take some kind of Action as part of that. One example of such an action, is Gathering. Lets say I'm going to Prospecting, because I'm working on my Mining and Smithing skills, and I want to try and find some iron ore.

In this procedure, I just do it, just as every other player is doing whatever they decided to do. No need to strictly announce, and usually doing so would interrupt the Keeper, whose job it is during this time to set the scene for this particular round of travelling or exploring.

I make my Gathering roll and look up my results on a handy reference sheet that includes all the info I need about the ores I collect, but then I also have, through these results, a possible Event that the game wants me to engage with, in addition to whatever the rules say I found while out prospecting, which could either be exactly what I was looking for, in lesser quantity, or a greater quantity of random stuff, or something inbetween. The game has effectively given me two kinds of feedback to my choice to go prospecting on this leg of our groups journey.

This one has always been my favorite, so lets say for my Event I got "They are coming...run!". Its up to me to interpret this Event how I see fit. To keep it simple, lets say I just want to inject a little excitement, so when we go around the horn to resolve everyones Turns, lets say I go first, probably because in this instance I just go for it.

I could initiate a scene where I describe myself running back into the party, deeply out of breath, and explain how I came under attack by rabid Pidgin bandits trying to take my iron, how I barely escaped, and now they're headed this way.

What happens here is that the feedback loop continues. I started an input that triggered it, the game gave me two bits of feedback, and now Im introducing that feedback to the group. Now they can not only start to respond to that input and add on to it, perhaps combining their own Events, but the GM is also participating, acting not just as the world itself as needed, but also facilitating more opportunities for the game to provide even more feedback, and ensuring that what is introduced stays within the bounds of the group's chosen game tone.

But beyond that, as this one Event spirals out, a whole bunch of mechanics could start flying. Perception checks, stealth roles, Construction to lay down traps and cover, Spells being cast and weapons drawn and Stances established; on and on it goes, and that's just what the Players can do. The GM has all of this more than they can start engaging as they prepare those Pidgin Bandits to come into conflict with the party. (And this was a real example, as it happens. We got wrecked and robbed because Pidgins are giant Varangian Pidgeon people and they dived bombed us)

All of these, by design, are set up to continually provide feedback as the players and the GM engage them, adding more dynamics as play continues. What this system does in isolation goes beyond just merely dictating that things happened or being an excuse to trigger something the GM was gonna run no matter what. Its a collaboration between three participants in an improvisational experience, that in its best form, none of them could have told alone.

You ask, “What does the Game in RPGs do, if not provide Consequences?” My answer would be: the Game provides structure and procedures of play; players provide Consequences.

Im more thinking of things like Go Aggro, where's there's specifically written things that happen as a part of engaging that move. (And for clarity, I keep going back to that one because its been a hot minute since I've even looked at AW, yet that move for whatever reason occupies my mind rent free)
 

kenada

Legend
Supporter
I think this is definitely an issue at play here, but from my perspective its more that RPGs are a lot of things at once. I touch on it the idea of the Duality, but as you relate, it can go farther than that. I think Gloomhaven, among other games, is a good example of how you can pull these games to be more focused on those other motivations, and that wouldn't be the case if players couldn't approach RPGs from the desire to just focus on those aspects over others. In the same way, games that eschew what appeals to those players to focus on some other aspect are doing the same sort of thing.

I think there is a genuine middle ground between these two, though.
Sorry, I meant to say “affirming the consequent”. It doesn’t follow that games are a storytelling medium just because stories can be produced by games. A trivial counterexample is playing a game to establish who advances in a tournament. It may be possible to turn certain moments into a story (e.g., Daigo vs Justin Wong in Evo 2004), but the purpose of that game is not to tell a story.

The middle ground I would draw is to say that games can be used as a storytelling medium, but they aren’t necessarily a storytelling medium. For example, I think people trying to play a pawn-stance hexcrawl in Moldvay Basic (or Dolmenwood if one wants something contemporary) would bristle at the suggest they’re playing to tell a story. On the other hand, those doing Actual Plays (or playing a game like that) might not like the suggestion they aren’t playing for the story they create.

I would argue Fiasco in particular is an exceptional case, given if you eschewed the dice mechanic, it wouldn't functionally be anything other than a pure improv game. And a very well designed one at that, to be clear; it actually is an example of the ideal the essay speaks to, but it enjoys that distinction because its only incorporating a single, very simplistic mechanical system, so it would've been remarkable if it somehow still managed to cause problems.
My point with these other examples is that they also have narrow premises. If you eschew the dice mechanic of Fiasco (or the card-based replacement in the second edition), then the game isn’t Fiasco anymore. It’s something else. The section read like more like a veiled attack on PbtA games rather than a discussion of types of railroads (though that’s a bit of RPG jargon I don’t particularly like much either since any utility it provides is outweighed by its negative connotation).

Funnily enough we had that discussion before some months ago I believe.
I think the last time we discussed it was November 2023 if the ENW search is right.

A more refined take is that, at a base level, we have improv dynamics, which is pretty easily understood through the idea of Follow the Follower: Someone starts, and you follow them, and they follow you, and you follow them, repeat until the sessions over (which can come in a lot of different forms, like the Story Spine). Its a back and forth feedback loop that keeps changing the gamestate, which in this instance we consider the fiction; the story we are telling.

When it comes to RPGs, Game Rules obviously intercede in this dynamic, and we have to think about how we reconcile that, right?

Not quite, because virtually all improv is fundamentally operating on some type of rule. Follow the Follower is a procedure, but often its not just that. The actual excercise that rule comes from involves a rule about mimicry; each Player needs to mimic the actions of all the other players, often with the caveat of doing More with each instance.

If someone coughs, you start hacking up a lung, that sort of thing. We can understand this as being a reinforcement of playstyle, because the feedback you receive is a reflection of how you play. If I begin a scene by playing the tragic orphan, vowing to avenge my parents, and you jump in as my well-to-do butler whose also a ninja cowboy astronaut badass willing to teach me everything you know, and then I take you up on that and become the hero known as Man, then we've reinforced how each of us played.

Now, in most cases, Improv games are pretty simplistic just like that exercise, doing no more than contextualizing the feedback between the players. But with RPGs, rules are typically not that simple, and they provide their own kind of feedback. As such, we have to recognize that RPGs, by way of hybridization, are iterating on the original dynamics. We don't just have Players, but GMs and, as I propose, the Game itself. We have to move from player to participant when we describe the improv dynamics involved, and we have to recognize the new dynamics introduced by the nature of these three different participants.

If you remember their machination diagrams, the way you can visualize the dynamic specific to RPGs, with regards to its difference from standard improv, is like this:

View attachment 385972

Throughout play, we have this throughline of fiction being created ad infinitum, and we can understand this as the game state at any given time. The moment something in the fiction triggers the feedback loop (most often its the game defining when this occurs, but it can also happen by GM or Player choice), then ideally all three Participants begin to bounce off of each other as they resolve the loop, and inject back into the fiction a change in the game state.

But, as noted, these three Participants have different roles, which I think are self explanatory. The Players occupy the same space as they do in improv, and the Game Rules act as a fixed yet dynamic point of normalcy for the dynamics to revolve around; if you engage them, you're going to get feedback from them that you have to respond to. The GM meanwhile sits between the two, often bridging the other two roles together.

All three have to engage and acknowledge each other throughout play, and the contention tends to be that the game, intentionally or otherwise, doesn't, leaving the other two roles to become imbalanced. The reason why is because the game can be an equalizing participant in the inherent imbalance of a GM-Players relationship.

To relate it back to improv, its very much like having one Player dictating 80-95% of the show while the other 6 people on stage jump in at points the first player says, but with RPGs its not always necessarily because one player is just a tyrant, but because the game is so poorly designed they have to do a lot more to produce a coherent experience than they should have to, and this produces unwelcome dynamics that are noticeable by the other players. If that doesn't sound familiar, I laid out all the ways these manifest in the essay. (Not that I think you Kenada wouldn't get me, just for anyone else reading)

A game can be an equalizer, offloading a lot of what the GM does and allowing for a more equitable distribution across all three Participants, but in order for that to work, Players and GMs need to be primed to trust the game to do this.
I was trying to get at the jargon overload that happens in RPG discourse. Adams and Dormans describe a particular design pattern for the purpose of encouraging specialization via rewarding avatar customization, but this is something else. Admittedly, this particular pattern is obscure as far as the discourse is concerned, but being familiar with it, I found the difference confusing.

To put it another way, if it takes that much to explain the difference to someone familiar with the pattern, maybe the process deserves its own name? (In fairness, the name given is not exactly the same, but it’s close, and it reminded me of the original.)

To give a practical example, I'll just point to my game's Event system, as I've talked with you about before.

When you're travelling or otherwise exploring, the procedure of play expects you to take some kind of Action as part of that. One example of such an action, is Gathering. Lets say I'm going to Prospecting, because I'm working on my Mining and Smithing skills, and I want to try and find some iron ore.

In this procedure, I just do it, just as every other player is doing whatever they decided to do. No need to strictly announce, and usually doing so would interrupt the Keeper, whose job it is during this time to set the scene for this particular round of travelling or exploring.

I make my Gathering roll and look up my results on a handy reference sheet that includes all the info I need about the ores I collect, but then I also have, through these results, a possible Event that the game wants me to engage with, in addition to whatever the rules say I found while out prospecting, which could either be exactly what I was looking for, in lesser quantity, or a greater quantity of random stuff, or something inbetween. The game has effectively given me two kinds of feedback to my choice to go prospecting on this leg of our groups journey.

This one has always been my favorite, so lets say for my Event I got "They are coming...run!". Its up to me to interpret this Event how I see fit. To keep it simple, lets say I just want to inject a little excitement, so when we go around the horn to resolve everyones Turns, lets say I go first, probably because in this instance I just go for it.

I could initiate a scene where I describe myself running back into the party, deeply out of breath, and explain how I came under attack by rabid Pidgin bandits trying to take my iron, how I barely escaped, and now they're headed this way.

What happens here is that the feedback loop continues. I started an input that triggered it, the game gave me two bits of feedback, and now Im introducing that feedback to the group. Now they can not only start to respond to that input and add on to it, perhaps combining their own Events, but the GM is also participating, acting not just as the world itself as needed, but also facilitating more opportunities for the game to provide even more feedback, and ensuring that what is introduced stays within the bounds of the group's chosen game tone.

But beyond that, as this one Event spirals out, a whole bunch of mechanics could start flying. Perception checks, stealth roles, Construction to lay down traps and cover, Spells being cast and weapons drawn and Stances established; on and on it goes, and that's just what the Players can do. The GM has all of this more than they can start engaging as they prepare those Pidgin Bandits to come into conflict with the party. (And this was a real example, as it happens. We got wrecked and robbed because Pidgins are giant Varangian Pidgeon people and they dived bombed us)

All of these, by design, are set up to continually provide feedback as the players and the GM engage them, adding more dynamics as play continues. What this system does in isolation goes beyond just merely dictating that things happened or being an excuse to trigger something the GM was gonna run no matter what. Its a collaboration between three participants in an improvisational experience, that in its best form, none of them could have told alone.
That sounds like an interesting situation that resulted from the game’s systems working together to generate thematically appropriate conflicts. Some games rely on the players and GM just knowing what to do to make things happen, but I like a game that is written and structured to make things happen. I find that especially important when you want to improvise a situation because it avoids feels of unfairness (e.g., the Quantum Ogres).

Having systems determine this stuff is one of the primary reasons for designing my own game. I want to run a no-/low-prep hexcrawl game, which means needing to rely on the system to arbitrate and ensure fairness over relying on the GM and the GM’s prep. I don’t really think of this as having the Game as a player because the Game on its own doesn’t do anything. It’s a procedure the group follows (with the GM supporting) to achieve the intended result of the game’s design.

Im more thinking of things like Go Aggro, where's there's specifically written things that happen as a part of engaging that move. (And for clarity, I keep going back to that one because its been a hot minute since I've even looked at AW, yet that move for whatever reason occupies my mind rent free)
Many games don’t work like PbtA games (particularly PbtA games that use moves). Given your past criticism of PbtA in general, it’s a little surprising that it seems like an important element in your structure of Game as Player.
 

grankless

she/her
I don't think you have to go that far. The GM is a player*. Strictly speaking, she is the only player the others have to interact with.
The game designers' intent and goals in creating the game you are playing, by necessity, makes them almost an invisible player in your session - their decisions shape everything you do in a game.
 

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