D&D (2024) Rogue Weapon mastery and Pact weapons

[ECMO3]

I am thinking of Playing a blade pact Rogue-Warlock. Start as a Rogue, then two warlock levels, then the rest Rogue.

The main idea will be truestrike-agonizing blast sneak attack.

Looking at weapon options I could go with a Musket and at level 3 I would be doing 1d12+6+1d6 sneak. I am wondering about how that would work with mastery.

When I conjure my pact weapon I am proficient with it, so I think I could take mastery in Musket after a long rest (assuming the musket was already conjured). So what would happen when I change my pact weapon (like if I change it to a Longbow in the middle of a battle of a fight for a long range shot). At this point I am no longer proficient in Musket, but still have the mastery?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am thinking of Playing a blade pact Rogue-Warlock. Start as a Rogue, then two warlock levels, then the rest Rogue.

The main idea will be truestrike-agonizing blast sneak attack.

Looking at weapon options I could go with a Musket and at level 3 I would be doing 1d12+6+1d6 sneak. I am wondering about how that would work with mastery.

When I conjure my pact weapon I am proficient with it, so I think I could take mastery in Musket after a long rest (assuming the musket was already conjured). So what would happen when I change my pact weapon (like if I change it to a Longbow in the middle of a battle of a fight for a long range shot). At this point I am no longer proficient in Musket, but still have the mastery?

Probably. But you can't access it anyway.

 

[Charlaquin]

None of this works. First off, Pact of the Blade specifies “a simple or martial melee weapon,” so musket and bow are not valid options. Second, Agonizing Blast affects “a cantrip that deals damage,” and True Strike doesn’t really deal damage, it causes you to make an attack with a weapon, using your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. But it’s the weapon, not the cantrip, that’s dealing damage. As for the interaction between Pact of the Blade and Weapon Mastery, I believe you have to choose a weapon type you have proficiency with for the Weapon Mastery feature. Pact of the Blade doesn’t give you proficiency with the type of weapon generally, it’s just with the specific weapon you form the bond with.

 

[ECMO3]

None of this works. First off, Pact of the Blade specifies “a simple or martial melee weapon,” so musket and bow are not valid options. Second, Agonizing Blast affects “a cantrip that deals damage,” and True Strike doesn’t really deal damage, it causes you to make an attack with a weapon, using your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. But it’s the weapon, not the cantrip, that’s dealing damage. As for the interaction between Pact of the Blade and Weapon Mastery, I believe you have to choose a weapon type you have proficiency with for the Weapon Mastery feature. Pact of the Blade doesn’t give you proficiency with the type of weapon generally, it’s just with the specific weapon you form the bond with.

Oh I missed that on the Pact of the blade, good point.

I disagree on Truestrike, you could argue at level 1-4 the Cantrip is not dealing the damage although the change to radiant damage really puts that interpretation in doubt. However it is clear the Cantrip specifically deals damage above level 4 - 1d6 level 5, 2d6 level 11 and 3d6 level 17.

I am pretty sure Truestrike is supposed to work with Agonizing Blast RAI as well.

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh I missed that on the Pact of the blade, good point.

I disagree on Truestrike, you could argue at level 1-4 the Cantrip is not dealing the damage although the change to radiant damage really puts that interpretation in doubt. However it is clear the Cantrip specifically deals damage above level 4 - 1d6 level 5, 2d6 level 11 and 3d6 level 17.

I am pretty sure Truestrike is supposed to work with Agonizing Blast RAI as well.

“Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell's casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon's normal damage type (your choice).
Cantrip Upgrade. Whether you deal Radiant damage or the weapon's normal damage type, the attack deals extra Radiant damage when you reach levels 5 (1d6), 11 (2d6), and 17 (3d6).

It’s always specifically the attack, not the cantrip, that deals damage. The cantrip merely allows you to make the attack, and changes the damage the attack deals. Similar to Shillelagh, which modifies the damage dealt by a club or quarterstaff rather than the cantrip itself dealing damage.

 

[ECMO3]

“Guided by a flash of magical insight, you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell's casting. The attack uses your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage rolls instead of using Strength or Dexterity. If the attack deals damage, it can be Radiant damage or the weapon's normal damage type (your choice).
Cantrip Upgrade. Whether you deal Radiant damage or the weapon's normal damage type, the attack deals extra Radiant damage when you reach levels 5 (1d6), 11 (2d6), and 17 (3d6).

It’s always specifically the attack, not the cantrip, that deals damage. The cantrip merely allows you to make the attack, and changes the damage the attack deals. Similar to Shillelagh, which modifies the damage dealt by a club or quarterstaff rather than the cantrip itself dealing damage.

No cantrips state explicitly that the cantrip deals the damage. Eldritch Blast doesn't, Chill Touch doesn't. They just say the target "takes damage".

This is agonizing blast:

Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your spellcasting ability modifier to that spell's damage rolls. Whenever you gain a Warlock level, you can change which of your damaging Warlock cantrips benefits from this invocation. Repeatable. You can gain this invocation more than once. Each time you do so, choose a different eligible cantrip.

The term "deal damage" is even in the description of True Strike three times!

The "one attack with a weapon" is what the cantrip does, no different than "hurl a crackling beam of energy" on EB. To accept this interpretation we have to accept that Eldritch Blast does not do damage as a Cantrip, but rather the attack with a crackling beam of energy does the damage. Further the extra damage at the end is explicitly from the Cantrip as the weapon by itself would not do this.

I think Truestrike is the main driver for changing the invocation as it was talked about extensively during the playtest.

 

[Charlaquin]

No cantrips state explicitly that the cantrip deals the damage. Eldritch Blast doesn't, Chill Touch doesn't. They just say the target "takes damage".

This is agonizing blast:

Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your spellcasting ability modifier to that spell's damage rolls. Whenever you gain a Warlock level, you can change which of your damaging Warlock cantrips benefits from this invocation. Repeatable. You can gain this invocation more than once. Each time you do so, choose a different eligible cantrip.

The term "deal damage" is even in the description of True Strike three times!

But in all cases, the attack is specified as what is dealing the damage.

The "one attack with a weapon" is what the cantrip does, no different than "hurl a crackling beam of energy" on EB. To accept this interpretation we have to accept that Eldritch Blast does not do damage as a Cantrip, but rather the attack with a crackling beam of energy does the damage.

No, because Eldritch Blast doesn’t say the attack, or even the beam, does damage, it says the target takes damage. The target taking damage is therefore an effect of the spell, whereas with True Strike the target taking damage is the result of being hit by an attack with a weapon.

Further the extra damage at the end is explicitly from the Cantrip as the weapon by itself would not do this.

It is not explicitly from the cantrip, it is explicitly from the attack, which I already hilighted in my previous post. The cantrip modifies the damage dealt by the attack, just as Shillelagh modifies the damage of a club or quarterstaff.

I think Truestrike is the main driver for changing the invocation as it was talked about extensively during the playtest.

Agonizing Blast changes were playtested before True Strike changes, so that hypothesis definitely doesn’t hold water. The main driver of changing the invocation was enabling warlocks to use damaging cantrips besides just Eldritch Blast.

 

[ECMO3]

But in all cases, the attack is specified as what is dealing the damage.

No, because Eldritch Blast doesn’t say the attack, or even the beam, does damage, it says the target takes damage. The target taking damage is therefore an effect of the spell, whereas with True Strike the target taking damage is the result of being hit by an attack with a weapon.

The entire attack we are talking about with true strike is an effect of the spell. The "attack" does not happen at all without the spell. Also keep in mind the weapon is RAW a material component for this spell.

Truestrike is not just a Cantrip that lets you make a weapon attack using Charisma. Truestrike is an actual spell you cast using the magic action, and with both a somatic and a specific material component. The spell causes the attack with the weapon that is the material component.

It is not explicitly from the cantrip, it is explicitly from the attack, which I already hilighted in my previous post. The cantrip modifies the damage dealt by the attack, just as Shillelagh modifies the damage of a club or quarterstaff.

The damage is not "explicitly" from the Cantrip in Eldritch Blast or Chill Touch either and the attack itself in Truestrike is explicitly from the cantrip.

Further the extra damage you get at higher levels is explicitly part of the "Cantrip Upgrade" for Truestrike. You are saying it is not explicitly caused by the cantrip, but the wording on the spell even calls it out specifically as part of an upgrade to the Cantrip.

The main driver of changing the invocation was enabling warlocks to use damaging cantrips besides just Eldritch Blast.

Yes damaging cantrips like Truestrike! And this was discussed at length during the playtest, it was also discussed how it was going to stack and was previously discussed on this board in the posts about the 2024 Warlock and this is the first time I have seen anyone suggest this.

If you want to play it this way at your table that is fine, but RAW and RAI AB clearly works with Truestrike (and Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade if you are playing with those).

 

[Charlaquin]

There’s no point continuing this line of discussion as we’re already at the point of just repeating the same points. Rule it how you want in your game, but the text is quite clear in my opinion.

 

[GMMichael]

None of this works. First off, Pact of the Blade specifies “a simple or martial melee weapon,” so musket and bow are not valid options. Second, Agonizing Blast affects “a cantrip that deals damage,” and True Strike doesn’t really deal damage, it causes you to make an attack with a weapon, using your spellcasting ability for the attack and damage roll with the weapon. But it’s the weapon, not the cantrip, that’s dealing damage. As for the interaction between Pact of the Blade and Weapon Mastery, I believe you have to choose a weapon type you have proficiency with for the Weapon Mastery feature. Pact of the Blade doesn’t give you proficiency with the type of weapon generally, it’s just with the specific weapon you form the bond with.

Good points, but I figure if WotC is going to break 5.5, then the players might as well break it too.

@ECMO3, if "ask your DM" isn't good enough, try this: Would the other players say your build isn't fair? Will true-agonizing-sneak-attack be the only action you take in combat?