D&D 5E Rogue / Echo Knight

[Mistwell]

I am looking to optimize a Rogue / Echo Knight.

First I am wondering how to use my echo for sneak attacks.

Let's say I am playing a Lightfoot Halfling Rogue, and our Rogue hides behind his medium sized fighter buddy successfully.

His Echo is next to a foe out in the open.

Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe?

Let's say our Rogue becomes an Arcane Trickster and gets the Find Familiar spell. Can the rogue have a Spider Familiar (tiny size) craw under a door or through a gap in a window, and then "see" through the familiars eyes to summon an Echo on other side of the door/window to swap places with the Echo as a means of teleporting behind barriers?

Could a Rogue Inquisitive use their Insightful Fighting ability to gain sneak attack from their Echo? Could a Rogue Swashbuckler use Rakish Audacity to do the same thing through their Echo?

What synergies and interesting tactics might be available for a Rogue/ Echo Knight and how might you build one? What levels would you take in each?

 

[Todd Roybark]

Can the Rogue attack through his Echo at advantage, thus gaining sneak attack against the foe?

My initial reaction: The PC is hidden. The Echo is not. An attack emanating from the Hidden PC gains Advantage as normal.

Not attacks from the very visible Echo.

Now if another PC/Ally was standing w/ in 5e of the foe, attacks from the Echo’s position would qualify for SA.

and then "see" through the familiars eyes to summon an Echo on other side of the door/window to swap places with the Echo as a means of teleporting behind barriers?

An Echo has to be summoned into an area 15’ away from you, that you can see.
So the interpretation of what the word: you, means in this context, is key.

If you is defined as one’s physical body, then no.

Could a Rogue Inquisitive use their Insightful Fighting ability to gain sneak attack from their Echo? Could a Rogue Swashbuckler use Rakish Audacity to do the same thing through their Echo?

Insightful Fighting is a clear “Yes”.
Rakish Audacity will require the PC meets the requirements ....be alone and w/in 5e of the target. Echo and PC next to the target still counts as alone.

Advanced Echo powers often require expenditure of one’s Reaction. Summoning the Echo, or swapping places with it is a Bonus Action.

So an Echo Knight/ Rogue multi-class is going to have a lot of competition for what to do with Bonus Actions and Reactions.

A Con bonus race would get more out of the Echo Knight features.

Echo Knight/Hunter multi-class strikes me as having more synergy, than a Rogue/Echo Knight combo.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

There's a lot of potential here, but some issues. First off, you don't get advantage from having an ally next to your enemy unless there is some sort of optional flanking rule in effect; the 5 foot rule is just that your attacks then qualify for sneak attack without needing advantage (as long as they have no disadvantage).

Also a lot of positioning based abilities specifically call for a creature, an allied creature, or you to be in X place or do X thing, and your echo is not you or a creature, it's an effect from an ability. Also keep in mind that it doesn't make attacks, you do.

Swashbuckler Rakish Audacity says you can "use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll". Since your echo isn't you there is no luck here. Similarly melee Arcane Tricksters often like to make their attacks with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips, which don't work when the actual you is more than 5 feet away.

All that out of the way, wow, Echo Knight can be really damned great with a Rogue because attacking an enemy while you are hidden gives you advantage on the attack. Your echo isn't you. So sit back in the shadows and let your echo do the work.

Now if your DM is a big rules stickler they will know that, technically, making an attack gives away your position, and strictly speaking it doesn't matter if you are visible or the attack actually comes from your direction they just know. But everyone who isn't a huge stick in the mud or fretful that you are getting too powerful an ability will note that this makes no damned sense at all; they know where I'm at because a ghostly image of me shot them from the other side of the room, come on. And even if you don't get a pass on attacks revealing your location, it's a lot easier to win the eternal argument with the DM whether the rogue has a place to hide mid-battle if they are basically hidden already and the enemy only ever knew where they were because of a strict interpretation of the rules. The only real problem is you will need your bonus action both to hide and resummon your echo everytime Mr. 1-Hit-Point bites the dust.

As for your spider trick, it doesn't work as well as you'd like, but it might still be a bit awesome. The trouble is that you have to use your action each turn to see through the spider's eyes. This means you can use it to see on the other side of a wall, and you can summon the echo there because that takes a bonus action, but you can't then take the attack action while still seeing the enemy, which means disadvantage, which cancels out the advantage from hiding, which may mean no sneak attack. But if there is an ally within 5 feet (including Mr. Spider then you can, indeed, make straight rolls with sneak attack from the next room). Another issue is that since you can't summon the echo through the spider's vision and attack with it the same turn (except once with your fighter action surge). Also they can step on the spider and end the fun.

Of course if you took three levels of warlock, pact of the chain, and the voice of the chain master invocation you can have a familiar that you see through at all times without an action, at which point you can totally live the dream of parking your familiar in the shadows, sitting 15 feet away in another room, and summoning and attacking with your echo every turn no matter how many times it gets killed.

The echo is also an awesome boon with the arcane trickster (or any spellcaster really) because it allows you to stay out of danger easier to avoid losing concentration. Particularly I am thinking of Shadow Blade, an insanely cool spell for spellcasting rogues whose only real problem is requiring concentration in melee. Yes I would indeed like to be 30 feet away please.

My initial reaction: The PC is hidden. The Echo is not. An attack emanating from the Hidden PC gains Advantage as normal.

Not attacks from the very visible Echo.

A fair ruling, not RAW though. You make the attack, and you are hidden. There is no "emanating" rule. The attack you make simply originates from the echos space.

But, as I mentioned in that endless block of text above, if a player was being a jerk about "I'm hidden even though they can see my echo" then be a jerk about "attacking reveals you even though they can only see your echo". Juggling taking a hide bonus action with resummoning the echo should put a limit on how much they can cheese it.

I think the ability doesn't really line up with what we visualize. If an echo knight makes a ranged attack then it seems that the actual projectile must teleport from them to the echo before flying towards it's target. And nowhere does it say that the echo is mirroring your actions. It might be more like it is just a static image of you and weapons teleport out of it's belly.

My own approach would be that they got it on turns when they summoned the echo with a bonus action. A ghostly image suddenly appearing and attacking should throw you off your game, even if you are expecting it, unless they keep appearing in the exact same spot.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't have the lore for the Echo Knight, but if I was DMing one I would use that to decide on things the rules don't cover. Personally, I think if you are possessing a spider familiar then the echo should also be a spider!

 

[Todd Roybark]

if your DM is a big rules stickler they will know that, technically, making an attack gives away your position,

That would be me. So just affirming Ben’s disclaimer of: “Your DM, may not approve this.”
Saying a grey hologram :
-that occupies it’s own space
- has an AC and an actual HP, and makes saving throws
-whacks things with weapons

is hidden just because the PC is, breaks my suspension of disbelief.

The Echo is more substantial than a defensive image deployed by a Mirror Image spell.

This is a really good power:

When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.

With coordination with teammates, this will help trigger Sneak Attacks.

The cost is not being able to use Uncanny Dodge. Which is a large cost, being able to half the damage of an attack, is crucial to a Rogue’s survival.

I also wonder how far into Echo Knight do you want to go? Just a 3 level dip?

The Inquisitive subclass has the most synergy with Echo Knight. Both mechanically and thematically, in my opinion.

 

[Mistwell]

An Echo has to be summoned into an area 15’ away from you, that you can see.
So the interpretation of what the word: you, means in this context, is key.

If you is defined as one’s physical body, then no.

Not understanding your reply here. It's on the other side of a door from my physical body. It's like 2 feet away from my body. And I can see that location, through the eyes of my familiar. So I am within 15 feet and I can see the spot.

 

[Mistwell]

There's a lot of potential here, but some issues. First off, you don't get advantage from having an ally next to your enemy

That's not what I was talking about. It has nothing to do with where the Echo is or an ally next to the target. But as you state later ,"All that out of the way, wow, Echo Knight can be really damned great with a Rogue because attacking an enemy while you are hidden gives you advantage on the attack. Your echo isn't you. So sit back in the shadows and let your echo do the work." Yes, that is what I was talking about.

If I hide - as in me in my physical body - then "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it." I can make that attack originate from the Echo's space instead of my own, "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack. " So the target cannot see me because I am hidden. So my attack should have advantage, and I am just changing the origination spot where the attack comes from.

As for your spider trick, it doesn't work as well as you'd like, but it might still be a bit awesome. The trouble is that you have to use your action each turn to see through the spider's eyes. This means you can use it to see on the other side of a wall, and you can summon the echo there because that takes a bonus action, but you can't then take the attack action while still seeing the enemy, which means disadvantage, which cancels out the advantage from hiding, which may mean no sneak attack.

Oh sure I was not thinking about making attacks through a wall with that trick. I was thinking about essentially teleporting using that trick. Switching places with the Echo on the other side of a door which was placed there by being able to see through the eyes of the familiar. Particularly useful if there is a crack in a window on the second story that's still within 15' of my real body.

But if there is an ally within 5 feet including Mr. Spider then you can, indeed, make straight rolls with sneak attack from the next room.

Now that I had not considered. Interesting.

Of course if you took three levels of warlock, pact of the chain, and the voice of the chain master invocation you can have a familiar that you see through at all times without an action, at which point you can totally live the dream of parking your familiar in the shadows, sitting 15 feet away in another room, and summoning and attacking with your echo every turn no matter how many times it gets killed.

See now this is the sort of devious mind I wanted working on this problem!

 

[Mistwell]

That would be me. So just affirming Ben’s disclaimer of: “Your DM, may not approve this.”
Saying a grey hologram :
-that occupies it’s own space
- has an AC and an actual HP, and makes saving throws
-whacks things with weapons

is hidden just because the PC is, breaks my suspension of disbelief.

The Echo is more substantial than a defensive image deployed by a Mirror Image spell.

I am fine with that ruling. You just need to re-hide next round same as normal. The advantage of this is you can make a melee attack from range, as opposed to being stuck making just a ranged attack.

This is a really good power:

When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.

With coordination with teammates, this will help trigger Sneak Attacks.

Yes, it will be helpful getting a second sneak attack off in a round.

I also wonder how far into Echo Knight do you want to go? Just a 3 level dip?

The Inquisitive subclass has the most synergy with Echo Knight. Both mechanically and thematically, in my opinion.

Mechanically, why do you think so?

 

[Mistwell]

I don't have the lore for the Echo Knight, but if I was DMing one I would use that to decide on things the rules don't cover. Personally, I think if you are possessing a spider familiar then the echo should also be a spider!

A mysterious and feared frontline warrior of the Kryn Dynasty, the Echo Knight has mastered the art of using dunamis to summon the fading shades of unrealized timelines to aid them in battle. Surrounded by echoes of their own might, they charge into the fray as a cycling swarm of shadows and strikes.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Mechanically, why do you think so?

Insightful Fighting. The synergy with a 3 level dip with Echo Knight is nice. Being able to bedevil an opponent at a distance and a get a near guaranteed Sneak Attack on the target upon moving would be devastating.

An Echo, already negates the Mobile feat, by not being a creature.
Add in the Sentinel feat, and Sneak Attack upon move is guaranteed.
At that point the opponents only option, is to attack the Echo. Which means the Rogue is tanking by sucking away the opponents actions.