Revised Rogue Class

Marnak

First Post
Revised Rogue Class

A friend of mine and I have been complaining about the rogue for years. Although the character is seen as one of the four “core of the core” along with fighters, wizards, and clerics, we find this class to be far more expendable than the other three. Although the rogue gets the most skill points, trapfinding, and sneak attack, we find that these are all things that can be dispensed with much easier than healing, arcane casting, and the tank. Perhaps this is as it should be, the key to allowing some flexibility in a four-person party. However, I would like to see a party that drops the rogue suffer a bit more for the decision and, on the flip side, I would like for a party with a rogue be a little happier they have him or her along for the ride.

Furthermore, our idea of the iconic rogue is a non-spellcaster that lives more by his wits than by her or his brawn. In 3.5e game, this feature is rendered by sneak attack. To an extent this is a successful match for us because it does lead to the rogue characters thinking tactically, moving strategically, and it allows them to do great damage without great strength. But many situations limit even the most creative player from utilizing sneak attack and some creatures are, of course, immune to sneak attack damage. In adventures that feature undead, for example, rogues can become spectators that makes them feel like fifth wheels. Perhaps this happens to fighters in adventures that feature lots of diplomacy and little combat but combat is so important to DND that I don’t think the trade is an even one.

To right this problem, I propose a change that is relatively simple but one that I think goes a long way to making the rogue a better example of the “brains over brawn” character.

Proposed change: Rogues, and only rogues, can perform an additional move-equivalent action every round. They cannot make a move with this action nor can they employ this extra move-equivalent action and a full-round action, but a character could perform the following actions in a round:

Full Round Action.
Standard Action, Move Action, Move Equivalent Action.
Standard Action, Move Equivalent Action, Move Equivalent Action.
Move Action, Move Action, Move Equivalent Action.
Move Action, Move Equivalent Action, Move Equivalent Action.
Move Equivalent Action, Move Equivalent Action, Move Equivalent Action.

Rationale: The rogue character should be one that thinks creatively in combat, living by his or her wits. The problem in the current rules is that a person playing a rogue has no advantages other than sneak attack to do this. In many cases, a fighter character will have more options to respond creatively to a given encounter than the rogue who is boxed into the sneak attack or nothing route. This change gives the rogue a serious tactical advantage and encourages players of rogues to think creatively since the “extra” action cannot be an attack.

Balancing the New Rogue: I am not sure what would be needed to balance this new character, as an extra action is a pretty nice ability. Possibilities I have considered including either (a) eliminating sneak attack entirely (seems like this might be too much though), (b) reducing the rate by which sneak attack damage increases and/or delaying acquisition of sneak attack.

I welcome your thoughts and reactions.

Marnak
 
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First, personally, I think rogue is one of the most and well-balanced classes out there - a rogue is a skill monkey, can sneak attack, can hide, infiltrate and set up ambushes... and, well let's see:
Marnak said:
In many cases, a fighter character will have more options to respond creatively to a given encounter than the rogue who is boxed into the sneak attack or nothing route. This change gives the rogue a serious tactical advantage and encourages players of rogues to think creatively since the “extra” action cannot be an attack.
Rogues have Use Magic Item as class skill. It's a great one. With the skill-centric rogue, you can easily be very good with magic items. Pick up a wand of scorching rays or some healing wands, and you can sneak attack with fiery death, throw arcane destruction around, cloak yourself with mirror images and double as a replacement cleric.

Just my opinion.
 

Use Magic Device

Lord Tirian, thanks for the reply and I think you are right about Use Magic Device's utlity. Furthermore, I don't think rogues are terrible characters, just not essential or different enough for my tastes. I just see other characters being able to duplicate the rogue's abilities pretty easily. For example, instead of spending ranks in UMD, why not just take a level of wizard instead? Its not that I don't think a rogue being able to use wands of scorching ray is a great idea, just that I am not sure that rogue levels are the best way to go to do that. And a lot of rogue builds I see involve taking levels of other classes like fighter or wizard, which makes me think something isn't quite right with the class.
 

Have you thought about increasing rogue specials, but the types available and the number received?

[core rules]Rogue Specials: 10, 13, 16, 19 (4)


[proposal #1]Rogue Specials: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 (6)

This simply changes the specials from once every 3 levels to once every 2 levels, increasing the number gained by +2. This can notably increase the power of the rogue at higher levels, especially if the suggestion of increasing the types of specials is implemented.

[proposal #2a]Rogue Specials: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 (7)
[proposal #2b]Rogue Specials: 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 (7)

These two keep the specials coming every three levels, but the first backs this up into the early levels as well, adding three more specials gained. The second suggestion is mean to prevent one level dipping for a rogue special and to give level 20 something special.

Note that if the specials *do* retract into pre-10th level, it will be necessary to have pre-reqs for each special. Otherwise some rather potent abilities will be available far too soon in the game for the rogue. You might also want to consider adding Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, IUD, and perhaps even Trapfinding and Trap Sense as Rogue specials.

[proposal #3]Rogue Specials: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 (10)

This one combines the prior two suggestions: specials come every other level and they start pre-10th level, for a total of 10 specials. Note that the rogue alternates between sneak attack progression and rogue special progression.

As suggested above, if you move rogue specials back before 10th level, it will be necessary to set pre-reqs for them to prevent abuse.


As for additional rogue specials, consider the specials of the ranger, the scout, and various rogue style PrCs. Death Attack, for instance, could become available as a special after the rogue has 5d6 Sneak Attack and the rogue special Crippling Strike (itself likely requiring 4d6 Sneak Attack). So it could be taken - at earliest - at level 10, presuming crippling strike is taken at level 8 (using proposal #3).

Swift Tracker, Hidden Tracker, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight (ex or su, depending on whether it is the ranger or shadow dancer version), variants of crippling strike (hitting other ability scores for damage, or improving ability score damage), other specials that might increase speed or stealth, trapfinding, trapsense, slippery mind, mettle, evasion and improved evasion, defensive roll, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, and of course the ever useful 'bonus feat' all come to mind as useful potential rogue specials.

Does this help any?
 

Rogue Specials

Nyeshet, very interesting idea. I do like it and will think about it some more. I think I like your last idea with more specials early and making trapfinding, etc. into specials. I like the choice this allows. I am still interesting in the idea of an extra action because of the way it would reward the "thinking" player, something I think is key to at least my idea of what the rogue should be, i.e. the wily character with guile who outthinks (and outdraws) the bad guy. I realize that this isn't the archetypal rogue for everyone though.
 

You can still have the extra move action. Just make it a special. Hmm, what if it required Evasion and Dex 15+? Or, if you want to make it harder to take just upgrade Evasion to Improved Evasion or Defensive Roll. Both suggest rapid precise movements, after all.
 

Nice Idea

You are right about making the extra move into a special. I will have to think about the prereqs and how it all fits together, but I appreciate the response and the ideas.
 

Since the rogue is a very skill intensive class the rogues use relies on the build of the rogue and on the DM. If the Dm does not put traps, locks, etc. in the way then the rogue becomes less useful. If the dm doesn't allow for encounters where the rogue can sneak in or even encounters where a rogue can scout out the encounter before the party gets there, then the rogue is less useful. If the rogue takes a ton of skills and never uses them, then that is the rogues fault.

I played a very strange rogue from level 3 to 28 ( I did have some levels of cleric for RP purposes). My rogue STRONGLY focused on disable device, and I had a plethora of other skills (sneaking, bluff, some x-class knowledges, etc). I had skill focus DD and as many feats as I could find to add to DD. I focused on having a high int and decent physical scores (str 14, dex 18, con 14) but I was definitely not a great melee combatant. I ended up taking improved unarmed strike, imp disarm and convincing the DM to let me make disable device "strikes" against opponents that wore armor or had any sort of item that could be taken apart. When I was in epic levels my DD score was so high (hitting mid 50's) that I could disable weapons! And with some levels in cleric I created an epic feat that allowed me to disable magical auras with a SC and DD check!

My rogue was fun and was definitely a necessity to the group, I made sure of it. I had high DD, sneaking abilities, fairy high bluff and procured some nifty magic items. I dealt with non-critable creatures by purchasing undead bane weapons and against constructs I was able to aid the other melee and in some cases disable constructs with movable joints and the like. One of my biggest benefits to the group in combat was a weapon I had that had a weapon bonus called Mana Wall Crushing, this lowered the SR of a creature every time I hit it! It can be found in the complete book of eldritch might, very handy. Also, my rogue special abilities helped out alot against crittable creatures. Crippling strike is awesome and on a wounding weapon it becomes very, very helpful. While my to hit was not very high I was able to maneuver into flanks and benefit from weapons with high basic enhancement bonuses along with some buff spells that effected everyone (prayer, mass buff spells, etc).

Hope this helps!
 

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