Retraining Feats that are prerequisites

[Herzog]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that you can't retrain feats that are prerequisites for other feats (that is, they are a prerequisite for a feat you took at a later level or are a prerequisite for a PrC).
However, re-reading the rules the only rule that even resembles it I can find is the rule on changing class-benefit decisions that cannot be changed if they make later choices illegal.

Any solid ruling on this?

Or does retraining a prereq rule simply render the depending feats and PrC useless, just as when a prereq ability dropped, a ranger wears heavy armor (and nullifies his combat feats) etc.

 

[Runestar]

You lose the use of a feat if you no longer meet its prerequisites, though you do not actually lose the feat itself.

For example, lets say a cleric with 11str and wearing a gloves of str+2 (for a total str of 13) takes power attack to qualify for blackguard (hypothetically, so ignore the improbability of this scenario). If he later takes off the gloves for any reason, he loses the use of power attack (because his str is now below 13). But because he still has the power attack feat, he retains the blackguard prc (and all its features).

If he had also taken a feat that required power attack as a prerequisite (but no other requirements), he would still be able to use that feat, even after losing the use of power attack.

 

[Jack Simth]

I could have sworn I read somewhere that you can't retrain feats that are prerequisites for other feats (that is, they are a prerequisite for a feat you took at a later level or are a prerequisite for a PrC).
However, re-reading the rules the only rule that even resembles it I can find is the rule on changing class-benefit decisions that cannot be changed if they make later choices illegal.

Any solid ruling on this?

Or does retraining a prereq rule simply render the depending feats and PrC useless, just as when a prereq ability dropped, a ranger wears heavy armor (and nullifies his combat feats) etc.

Well, in Complete Warrior page 16 (and in one or two of the other early "Complete" line of books), there's a line that says you lose the benefits of a PrC if you no longer meet a prerequisite.

However, in 3.0, that rule was in the DMG. In 3.5, it's not. The early Complete line of books had issues with Copy/Paste errors from earlier edition material (including Scrying as a skill, Wilderness Lore instead of Survival, and so on). While this particular bit of Complete Warrior has never been errata'd away, it's probably not supposed to be universal.

But then, much of what little balance PrC's have is based on their requirements.

While it may or may not be RAW, when I'm DMing....
1) If you voluntarily lose a prerequisite for a PrC, you lose the benefits of the PrC.
2) If you're forced to lose a prerequisite for a PrC, you can no longer advance in the PrC until you again meet the prerequisitie (but you keep PrC abilities, unless you don't actively seek out a way to regain the requirement).

That is, if the Blackgaurd retrains Power Attack he loses Blackguard levels; if the Blackguard loses the use of Power Attack becuase he got hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement, he's fine (other than the strength loss).

 

[Herzog]

ok, so we have:

1. loosing the use of a feat because of losing a (non-feat)prerequisite:
example: can not use power attacks when str dropped below 13.
2. loosing the use of a feat because of losing a prerequisite feat:
example: can no longer use Improved Feint after retraining Combat Expertise.

a feat dependant on Improved Feint would not be affected.
neither would a feat depending on power attack be affected by the loss of Str, unless it specifies Str 13 as a prerequisite itself. (which happens to be the case for several of those feat trees.)

Leaves the question:
is it Ok to retrain combat expertise if you also have Improved Feint, provided you realise that after retraining Combat Expertise you can no longer use Improved Feint?

 

[Herzog]

of course, I should have checked the FAQ first:

Q: Can you use the retraining rules from PH2 to remake
your character in such a way that would not normally be
achievable through level-to-level progression?
A: No. When you are using the retraining rules, your
character’s end result must be one that you could have created
without using the retraining rules.

So no, you can't remove feats that are prerequisites for other feats that you have.

 

[Runestar]

Fair enough, the sage has already answered it conclusively (though the PHB2 should have explained it in more detail to begin with).