Replacements for Turn Undead ability?

[GreatLemur]

Has anyone got any opinions on exactly what a Cleric's Turn/Rebuke Undead progression is worth, or what it could fairly be replaced with? I've been thinking more about religion-specific Cleric classes since that 2E-style specialty priests thread, and that whole focus on the undead always stood out as the least generic and god-independent feature of the Cleric class (I'm not even going to bring Paladins into this), so I'd love some ideas about what I could replace it with.

The safest idea I can come up with at the moment is to effectively give the variant Cleric a free divine feat (from Complete Divine), and remove his/her ability to spend turn/rebuke attempts on anything but that feat. Unfortunately, there weren't all that many divine feats in the book, and a lot of them just focus on different kinds of turn effects.

So what else might work? Maybe an additional domain? That'd be nice, especially since I'd also be using the very domain-dependent spontaneous divine casters rules. An annoying number of domain granted abilities revolve around turning, but I think I can work with that.

 

[smootrk]

I always thought that the Cleric should always attract followers (Leadership Feat regardless). Folks who follow the words & deeds of the spokesman of a deity, and help to build the 'church' for that character.

As a alternative feature, you could grant the leadership feat (and it is Charisma based like the Turning Ability). For the cohort portion, you might grant a bonus or allow appropriately aligned creatures to fill the position (archons, eladrins, or the opposite for evils) as a helper/enforcer.

Your idea for alternate feat seems OK as well, but allow for the cleric to buy back 'turn undead' as a feat choice later. - like you said in another thread, relegating the Turn Undead feature to a feat allows for more customization.

 

[DulothS]

Here's a thought; give clerics 3 domains, and make these two new ones part of select god's lists (Wee Jas, for example)

Undead Controll;
Domain power is command/rebuke undead
Spell access are Undead-creation spells, with levels not containing an Undead creation spell containing instead a "Summon Undead X" spell of the appropriate level. An alternative option would be to include some Enchantment spells that are specially empowered to overcome Undead mental immunities by divine magic.

Undead Destruction;
Domain power is turn/destroy undead
Spell access are positive energy Undead-harming spells, either simple heal/cure spells or specefic ones like death to undeath with a 9th-level "Wail of the Banshee" type mass undead destruction.

 

[Shane_Leahy]

Here is a link to post describing what I was doing with clerics....

 

[GreatLemur]

Still looking up equivalencies for the Turn/Rebuke Undead ability. Throwing Dice Games' Character Customization (which still needs to be updated for 3.5) calls it equal to a feat, but that seems pretty uneven to me. Turning is an extremely situational ability, granted, but it's a lot more powerful than a feat, and scales with class level. I'm definitely leaning toward rating it equal to a domain, or possibly a step up the HD or skill progression scales. I'd kind of like to be able to replace it with a Rage, Smite, or Favored Enemy track, but that'd probably be too much.

Leadership is an extremely interesting alternative. It's a feat, but a powerful one, and one which does scale with level, and could fit a lot of Cleric concepts. Thanks, smootrk.

 

[trav_laney]

It might not be what you are looking for, but I thought I would go ahead and share just in case. I allow four different versions of Cleric in my current campaign...the player makes his choice at 1st level, and nothing short of a wish will let him change it.

Use them if you like, or ignore them altogether. But please let me know what you think.

-----

1. Anti-Undead: this cleric can turn the undead, according to the rules in the PHB. It is my favorite, but I like to allow people to make choices.

2. Anti-Demon: this cleric can turn demons (chaotic evil outsiders) or devils (lawful evil outsiders) instead of undead. This variant uses the same rules for turning the undead (HD restrictions, turning checks and damage, etc.) except that they only affect outsiders of these particular alignments. Clerics who choose this path cannot turn undead. This is a great choice for campaigns that center around outsiders instead of undead.

3. Anti-Lycanthrope: this cleric can turn lycanthropes instead of undead. This ability uses the same rules for turning the undead (as above), excep that the cleric can only affect lycanthropes. Clerics who choose this path cannot turn undead. This is great for a gaslight horror campaign, where the party will find themselves dealing with were-creatures on a very regular basis. [basically, this allows a cleric to gain the granted power of the Moon domain at the cost of being able to turn/rebuke the undead].

4. Anti-Magic: this cleric can counterspell incoming spells with a successful turning check. In essence, the cleric makes a Spellcraft check as normal, and uses a turning check in place of his caster level check for the purpose of counterspelling (only). This lets him/her use Turning Undead attempts (instead of prepared spells) when counterspelling. Clerics who select this ability forefit the ability to turn the undead. Since my players rarely use the Counterspell option in combat, this one doesn't see a lot of use...but in a high-magic campaign...

 

[GreatLemur]

I've wanted to get away from turn effects in general (unless I could possibly figure out some kind of "Turn Unbelievers" mechanic that wouldn't be a complete nightmare to adjudicate), but I like the sound of replacing turning with counterspelling. I can see how it might not get used a hell of a lot, just due to the nature of counterspelling (I think most players would rather cast a spell of their own than expend time and resources just to keep someone else from casting), but maybe if the ability was expanded to work more like dispel magic? Of course, that's a 3rd-level spell and I'd be giving it out to 1st-level Clerics, so maybe it should be weakened to more of a "suppress magic" ability with a shorter range and temporary effects...

 

[trav_laney]

...maybe if the ability was expanded to work more like dispel magic? Of course, that's a 3rd-level spell and I'd be giving it out to 1st-level Clerics, so maybe it should be weakened to more of a "suppress magic" ability with a shorter range and temporary effects...

That could be very interesting. Maybe you could tweak it so that it could only dispel a certain number of spell levels within the area of effect? How about this: the effect is treated as an Area Dispel with a caster level equal to the turning check. The amount of levels dispelled would be equal to the Turning damage roll.

For example, a 1st level cleric wishes to dispel all spell effects within range (as with the "area dispel" option of Dispel Magic). He makes a Turning check, and rolls a 10...with his Charisma, that means he can affect spells which have a caster level of up to his cleric level +1, or 2nd level. He makes a damage roll, and comes up with 11. Therefore, he can dispell 11 levels' worth of spells within range, but only the spells with a caster level of 2 or less.

At higher levels, though, this becomes unbalanced. A 20th level cleric with a +4 mod to Charisma and 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion) could dispel magic with a +30 to his caster level...much higher than the +20 cap for the Greater Dispel Magic spell. If you want all clerics in your campaign to be the unquestioned champions of dispelling magic, this might not be a problem, but I think it raises a power issue. That +20 cap is there for a reason.

Well, my two cents, anyway. Maybe you can take this idea and build on it.

 

[trav_laney]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that we are just making this harder than it needs to be. The easiest and most-balanced way to handle it, I think, would be to create a couple of divine feats.

Divine Abjuration (Divine)
Use one of your turn attempts to disrupt magic effects.
Prerequisite: ability to turn or rebuke undead, caster level 5
Benefit: By sacrificing one of your turn undead attempts for the day, you can cast dispel magic as a spell-like ability.

Greater Divine Abjuration (Divine)
You become more adept at using your turn attempts to disrupt magic effects.
Prerequisite: ability to turn or rebuke undead, Divine Abjuration, caster level 12
Benefit: By sacrificing one of your turn undead attempts for the day, you can cast greater dispel magic as a spell-like ability.

Of course, this is beyond the scope of what you were trying to accomplish. You were wanting to replace Turning Undead altogether, and all I've been able to do is make changes to it. *sigh* I suck at this.

 

[GreatLemur]

That sounds good, but dispel magic is a 3rd level spell. I wouldn't give any class the ability to cast fireball 3 + CHA times per day at first level.

Still, while a 1st level Cleric could use it, he would be making his dispel check as a 1st level caster. So maybe that's not so bad. It sounds okay on a gut level. Maybe if it was limited to the "targeted dispel" effect, instead of the area dispel? I'd love to get this to work, as it seems really Cleric-appropriate to be able to remove spell effects from people.

Anyway, writing it up as a divine feat is fine. Hell, my main idea for replacing the Turn Undead ability was just replacing it with one divine feat or another.