andreszarta
Adventurer
Hey EnWorld!
My last dalliance with 4e was back in 2017 when I briefly ran a short campaign for a group of friends who were interested in playing the game with a more Story Now approach. Back in the day I was drawing a lot of inspiration from the discussions that were held here, in threads like Pemertonian Scene-Framing; A Good Approach to D&D 4e.
My thinking and experience with Story Now gaming wasn't nearly as mature as it is nowadays with most of my current gaming being firmly rooted in the PbtA tradition. As I am preparing to revisit 4e with the eventual intent of running it, I want to ask for your help in trying to understand and reconcile what I consider to be some of the rough edges in the system that seem to be pointing away from that particular agenda. Since I have a good number of these questions, I kind of want to go in order and explore each one deeply before moving on to the next, but I'm also very open to have the conversation move to surprising places as very often I found those to be tremendously educational and have others point me at their own points of contention. All good contributions!
Let's start with skills. Chapter 5 of the PHB1 talks about skills in a manner similar to every other edition of D&D, a general overview of what each does, its related stats and then a discussion of its associated mechanics. Each skill seems to want to focus on a series of special use cases (such as Heal's First Aid or Dungeoneering Forage) that point at the different ways these skills are meant to be invoked.
When I read these use cases, I don't know why my mind is unable to read them as, say how I would read a PbtA playbook move, and instead what I get from them is a really strong pull towards Right to Dream play were these actions can't meaningfully exist without the more naturalistic approach to exploration.
Let's look at Acrobatics, for instance:
Acrobatics (Dexterity)
Armor Check Penalty
You can perform an acrobatic stunt, keep your balance while walking on narrow or unstable surfaces, slip free of a grab or restraints, or take less damage from a fall.
Acrobatic Stunt
Make an Acrobatics check to swing from a chandelier, somersault over an opponent, slide down a staircase on your shield, or attempt any other acrobatic stunt that you can imagine and that your DM agrees to let you try. The DM sets the DC based on the complexity of the stunt and the danger of the situation. If the stunt fails, you fall prone in the square where you began the stunt (the DM might change where you land, depending on the specific stunt and situation). Your DM always has the right to say that a stunt won’t work in a particular situation or to set a high DC.
Acrobatic Stunt: Standard action or move action, depending on the stunt.
✦ DC: Base DC 15.
✦ Success: You perform an acrobatic stunt.
✦ Failure: You fail to pull off the stunt and might fall or suffer some other consequence.
Balance
Make an Acrobatics check to move across a surface less than 1 foot wide (such as a ledge or a tightrope) or across an unstable surface (such as a wind-tossed rope bridge or a rocking log).
Balance: Part of a move action.
✦ DC: See the table.
✦ Success: You can move one-half your speed across a narrow or unstable surface.
✦ Fail by 4 or Less: You stay in the square you started in and lose the rest of your move action, but you don’t fall. You can try again as part of a move action.
✦ Fail by 5 or More: You fall off the surface (see “Falling,” page 284) and lose the rest of your move action. If you are trying to move across an unstable surface that isn’t narrow, you instead fall prone in the square you started in. You can try again as part of a move action if you’re still on the surface.
✦ Grant Combat Advantage: While you are balancing, enemies have combat advantage against you.
✦ Taking Damage: If you take damage, you must make a new Acrobatics check to remain standing.
Reduce Falling Damage (Trained Only)
If you fall or jump down from a height, you can make an Acrobatics check to reduce the amount of falling damage you take.
Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.
✦ Damage Reduced: Make an Acrobatics check, and reduce the amount of falling damage you take by one-half your check result (round down).
When I read Balance action for instance, where success means you can move one-half your speed across a narrow or unstable surface...I mean cool, that's what physically happens in the fiction but we got no meaningful output with regards to whatever conflict we are meant to be resolving. Instead we got a output that sort of demands that attention is placed in the minute details of the fiction, and leaves conflict resolution to GM Fiat.
So I guess my questions are:
My last dalliance with 4e was back in 2017 when I briefly ran a short campaign for a group of friends who were interested in playing the game with a more Story Now approach. Back in the day I was drawing a lot of inspiration from the discussions that were held here, in threads like Pemertonian Scene-Framing; A Good Approach to D&D 4e.
My thinking and experience with Story Now gaming wasn't nearly as mature as it is nowadays with most of my current gaming being firmly rooted in the PbtA tradition. As I am preparing to revisit 4e with the eventual intent of running it, I want to ask for your help in trying to understand and reconcile what I consider to be some of the rough edges in the system that seem to be pointing away from that particular agenda. Since I have a good number of these questions, I kind of want to go in order and explore each one deeply before moving on to the next, but I'm also very open to have the conversation move to surprising places as very often I found those to be tremendously educational and have others point me at their own points of contention. All good contributions!
Let's start with skills. Chapter 5 of the PHB1 talks about skills in a manner similar to every other edition of D&D, a general overview of what each does, its related stats and then a discussion of its associated mechanics. Each skill seems to want to focus on a series of special use cases (such as Heal's First Aid or Dungeoneering Forage) that point at the different ways these skills are meant to be invoked.
When I read these use cases, I don't know why my mind is unable to read them as, say how I would read a PbtA playbook move, and instead what I get from them is a really strong pull towards Right to Dream play were these actions can't meaningfully exist without the more naturalistic approach to exploration.
Let's look at Acrobatics, for instance:
Acrobatics (Dexterity)
Armor Check Penalty
You can perform an acrobatic stunt, keep your balance while walking on narrow or unstable surfaces, slip free of a grab or restraints, or take less damage from a fall.
Acrobatic Stunt
Make an Acrobatics check to swing from a chandelier, somersault over an opponent, slide down a staircase on your shield, or attempt any other acrobatic stunt that you can imagine and that your DM agrees to let you try. The DM sets the DC based on the complexity of the stunt and the danger of the situation. If the stunt fails, you fall prone in the square where you began the stunt (the DM might change where you land, depending on the specific stunt and situation). Your DM always has the right to say that a stunt won’t work in a particular situation or to set a high DC.
Acrobatic Stunt: Standard action or move action, depending on the stunt.
✦ DC: Base DC 15.
✦ Success: You perform an acrobatic stunt.
✦ Failure: You fail to pull off the stunt and might fall or suffer some other consequence.
Balance
Make an Acrobatics check to move across a surface less than 1 foot wide (such as a ledge or a tightrope) or across an unstable surface (such as a wind-tossed rope bridge or a rocking log).
Balance: Part of a move action.
✦ DC: See the table.
✦ Success: You can move one-half your speed across a narrow or unstable surface.
✦ Fail by 4 or Less: You stay in the square you started in and lose the rest of your move action, but you don’t fall. You can try again as part of a move action.
✦ Fail by 5 or More: You fall off the surface (see “Falling,” page 284) and lose the rest of your move action. If you are trying to move across an unstable surface that isn’t narrow, you instead fall prone in the square you started in. You can try again as part of a move action if you’re still on the surface.
✦ Grant Combat Advantage: While you are balancing, enemies have combat advantage against you.
✦ Taking Damage: If you take damage, you must make a new Acrobatics check to remain standing.
Reduce Falling Damage (Trained Only)
If you fall or jump down from a height, you can make an Acrobatics check to reduce the amount of falling damage you take.
Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.
✦ Damage Reduced: Make an Acrobatics check, and reduce the amount of falling damage you take by one-half your check result (round down).
When I read Balance action for instance, where success means you can move one-half your speed across a narrow or unstable surface...I mean cool, that's what physically happens in the fiction but we got no meaningful output with regards to whatever conflict we are meant to be resolving. Instead we got a output that sort of demands that attention is placed in the minute details of the fiction, and leaves conflict resolution to GM Fiat.
So I guess my questions are:
- Is it just me who is reading skills incorrectly? If so, what am I missing and how am I not seeing them in the proper light? How are these working, as written, to support Story Now? When are we supposed to be rolling them?
- Do others see this similarly? What use are you giving skills then? I assume primarily Skill Challenges but are there other use cases?
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