RAW double jump

[Daedrova]

To give everyone some background - players in my game will need to make their way up a 30 ft. wall. There are Eladrins in the party with the ability to teleport 25 ft. as a move action...so I looked up rules for jumping on page 182 of the Players Handbook to see if it is possible to jump with a move action, then teleport with a second move action to clear this distance.

The last sentence of the High Jump section states "you can end your first move in midair if you double move (page 284)."

PH page 284 says "to double move, you have to take the same move action twice in a row..."

While that seems to prevents the Eladrin jump+teleport for extra distance tactic (but see questions below) the wording also indicates that you can make a second jump check on the second move action.
"High Jump: part of a move action"

A Double Jump.

I wouldn't argue that the rules are intended for this.. but RAW seems to indicate it is viable... and it is humorous... and for those who don't mind a little video game in your D&D it could be fun.

Preliminary question: Did I miss something indicating this isn't actually possible?

Related questions:

1. Are you still considered to have a running start for the jump check on your second move action?

2. Page 182 says about the High Jump (under "Uses Movement") "If you run out of movement, you fall." So if the player only moves 5 of their 6 squares during this "run and jump" have they "run out of movement?"

3. If they haven't run out, then do they not fall?

4. If they do not fall, would the Eladrin jump+teleport tactic be viable again?

 

[Eldorian]

Preliminary question: Did I miss something indicating this isn't actually possible?

Yes. Jumping is part of a move action. A double move allows you to use two identical move actions in a row and then adds their speeds together. There are only crawl, escape, run, shift, squeeze, stand up, and walk as move actions. I'd say that escape and stand up are obviously not possible double moves. So, when you perform a double move of the crawl, run, shift, squeeze, or walk moves, then you double your total number of squares you can move, then you can include any number of jumps as part of the move, each jump must end before you run out of movement, or you fall. The proviso that your can end your first move in midair if you double jump is the same as the proviso that you can end your first move in an allied occupied square, or that you can end your first move halfway through a piece of difficult terrain. (technically, if you're crawling you don't get to add the extra square if your move is odd, but I'd allow you to add move rate together then divide by two.)

You want a mind bender, take a look at double move with the rogue at will Great Leap. I'd say a double move with great leap is only one athletics check, and is a pointless option because great leap already doesn't concern itself with your actual move rate. But one could make an argument (which is usually a bad idea in dnd) that it lets you have two athletics checks, both as if you were running, you're in the air until the end of the second move, and it ignores your speed. But this is crazy. No one has ever jumped much more than 30 feet (official record is 29 ft 4½ in), which is 6 squares. The idea that a rogue can jump more than 60 feet is crazy hehe. That'd be two dc 30 jumps in a row if you allow Great Leap to work like that, which is certainly possible.

By the basic rules, a human jumper with no magic items to increase his speed has a theoretical maximum jump at 80 feet, which is dc 80 athletics check.


This discussion has, however, opened my eyes to just how well DnD character can exceed real world records in jumping. 35 feet is only a dc 35 check, and getting +15 is doable for a human at level 2.

 

[Daedrova]

It is not clear how you are trying to answer. I already quoted "jump is part of a move." ... the PH also clearly identifies the possibility of ending a move action in mid-air; even further stating that you to remain in mid-air between move actions if you take a double move...

So what does it matter which move action you choose? (other than than the requirement that both move actions in a round must be the same).

Example:
-I am human in no armor taking a double move this turn. I choose the run action and will move ([6+2] x2) 16 squares. (Note: there are still two distinct move actions taking place - that is at the 8th square my first move action ends.)
-I choose to high jump as part of my first move action. When I reach the 7th square, I roll a 25 on my Athletics check, allowing me to jump 5 feet (1 square).
-Since I chose to double-move and this 8th square my first move action ends and I remain in the air.
-My second move action is also a run action.
-I choose to make a second jump check at the beginning of this second move action, rolling another 25 and high jumping another 5 feet into the air.

What in the RAW has been violated in this example?

 

[Eldorian]

It is not clear how you are trying to answer. I already quoted "jump is part of a move." ... the PH also clearly identifies the possibility of ending a move action in mid-air; even further stating that you to remain in mid-air between move actions if you take a double move...

So what does it matter which move action you choose? (other than than the requirement that both move actions in a round must be the same).

Example:
-I am human in no armor taking a double move this turn. I choose the run action and will move ([6+2] x2) 16 squares. (Note: there are still two distinct move actions taking place - that is at the 8th square my first move action ends.)
-I choose to high jump as part of my first move action. When I reach the 7th square, I roll a 25 on my Athletics check, allowing me to jump 5 feet (1 square).
-Since I chose to double-move and this 8th square my first move action ends and I remain in the air.
-My second move action is also a run action.
-I choose to make a second jump check at the beginning of this second move action, rolling another 25 and high jumping another 5 feet into the air.

What in the RAW has been violated in this example?

It is implicit in the jumping rules that your jump must end before you can begin a second jump. Otherwise, what is to stop you from jumping again mid jump without taking a double move?

Actually, it's also implicit that your feet must be on the ground to jump...

I was under the impression that you believed that the second move granted another athletics check because it was a "jump" move. But instead, you've revealed another brand of crazy altogether. Infinite oregano argument I guess.

 

[Ibixat]

woah... quick question here, the rogue powers that alter jumping

Great Leap - Effect: Make a high jump or a long jump. Determine the DC of the Athletics check as though you had a running start. The distance you jump can exceed your speed.

It is a "move action" does this mean that I have to do it standing still every time, or can I actually move during the jump, for example take my 6 movement and go 7 squares with a run, then do the jump portion and get a 35 DC and clear 7 more squares? Is this one move? or do I need to double move and cross my first 8 then leap right away as the second action etc.

How about cloud jump - Effect: Make two consecutive Athletics checks to jump, with a +5 power bonus to each. You don’t have to land between the jumps and can exceed your normal movement.

This is level 22, so I'm looking at easily a +16 athletics mod by then for my non strength based rogue and with the +5 power bonus that means potentially two 35 DC jump checks.

I guess what I'm looking at here is the two rogue powers are listed as Move actions, does this mean the movie is entirely consumed by the jumping or are they used like normal jump checks are in a move? Because jumps official action type is "part of a move action".


What I find most entertaining is you can jump while prone.

 

[Bagpuss]

Did no one buy a climber's kit? You know the one with the grappling hook to go with the 50ft of rope from the Standard Adventurer's kit? The hammer and the pitons, that make 30ft walls a simple problem.

Failing that why doesn't the Eldarin stand on someone's shoulders before he teleports.

 

[Daedrova]

It is implicit in the jumping rules that your jump must end before you can begin a second jump. Otherwise, what is to stop you from jumping again mid jump without taking a double move?

Actually, it's also implicit that your feet must be on the ground to jump...

I was under the impression that you believed that the second move granted another athletics check because it was a "jump" move. But instead, you've revealed another brand of crazy altogether. Infinite oregano argument I guess.

Well, this is certainly not the craziest interpretation we have ever seen when going strictly by RAW (in the absence of real world comparison/sensibility) ...
.. not quite "infinite oregano" ... but its own brand of craziness, yes.

I agree that you should land after jumping – but then there is this RAW statement "you can remain in mid-air at the end of your first move action if you take a double move."

The issue is the RAW do not say what happens at the beginning of your second move action after ending your first move action mid-jump… other than you begin that move action in mid-air.
The sensible extrapolation: you must travel any remaining distance left from a jump check made during the previous move action and land, spending the appropriate amount of movement for the remaining jump distance traveled, before moving again.

To assume a character does not have to land after jump during a move action.. (a possibility since this is implied but not specifically written) would allow a character to high jump a distance equal to his speed even without the double move by making multiple jump checks…
That would also allow infinite jump distance with the rogue abilities mentioned above...
After all, where do the rules say your feet have to be on the ground to make a jump check? (insert: "what if I am walking on water/a bridge/etc.” arguments).

(there is your oregano )

 

[Daedrova]

Did no one buy a climber's kit? You know the one with the grappling hook to go with the 50ft of rope from the Standard Adventurer's kit? The hammer and the pitons, that make 30ft walls a simple problem.

Failing that why doesn't the Eldarin stand on someone's shoulders before he teleports.

You are right, the wall is a problem easily solved by the players. Although I could see other scenarios where timing, distance, etc. could become more of a pressing, the purpose of writing all of that was simply to provide the story (…excuse) for "what brought me to this place."
The main point/question was the idea of the RAW extrapolation which would allow a double jump.

Can anyone point to something in the RAW that defines this as “not possible?”

 

[Dracorat]

Well, let me ask this....

What's to stop you from jumping again after the first square of a three square jump, according to RAW?

 

[Dracorat]

Since no one has responded, my answer would be "because the rules for jumping explicitly declare the resolution of the jump including height cleared and distance covered. Therefor, those resolutions must first come to pass before that action is considered resolved and another action that modifies the move is allowed."

If this is how you feel, then ending in midair does not negate that.

But, back to the Original Question ...

Teleportation itself is a move action. In order to double move, you have to take the same move action twice and since this isn't at-will you cannot.

On the other hand, in the rules for subbing movements, it does say you can take two move actions, not that they necessarily need to be a "double move".

Yet, if you do that (take two moves) and you aren't double moving, you would have to resolve each movement. Ending the first movement in mid air isn't allowed. You aren't double moving, you are moving twice - this is an important distinction. "If you run out of movement you fall" the PHB says. With resolution of the fall, you're on solid ground again before you take the second move action.

So no, you cannot jump then teleport at the peak of the jump.

Edit: FWIW - if they're at least 3.7 foot tall, theyd be able to simply teleport with their hands in the air and grab the ledge at the top of the teleport. (Assuming they're teleporting straight up)