Rapid Shot and Multi Shot at once?

[Thurbane]

To continue this discussion in it's own thread:

I've had a query from one of my players - can he combine RS with MS (i.e. each of his Rapid Shot attacks is with multiple arrows). The wording of the feats seems to suggest he can, and he does take significant to hit penalties, but it seems not quite right to me...

Rapid Shot gives you one extra attack when using the full attack action with a ranged weapon. Manyshot is a standard action. Thus, you can't combine them.

But technically a normal ranged attack is also a standard action, isn't it? And Rapid Shot can be used with normal attacks...

You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

My player argues that MS is an attack, and as such, he can use it with RS.

Note also that the wording says "you must use the full attack action to use this feat" rather than "using this feat is a full round action in itself".

Not when it's part of a full Attack.

Bad logic.

A normal ranged attack uses a standard action. (So does casting most spells, the Manyshot feat, turning undead and many other actions.) It does not follow that you can substitute the attacks in a full attack action with any action that requires a standard action. Nor does it mean that all attacks are standard actions. If they were, you'd pretty much never be able to make more than one per round.

"In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action."-- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#actionTypes

One round, one standard action.

OK, now to continue...

I think I may be explaining myself badly here.

Yes, I know you cannot make a full round action AND a standard action in the same round.

But my point is this: once Multishot becomes part of the Rapid Shot, it ceases to be it's own standard action, and becomes part of the full round action that is Rapid Shot. In the same way that a normal ranged attack is a standard action, but then becomes part of RS, ceasing to be it's own separate standard action.

I am not fixated on this being the case, but if I am to tell my player he can't do this, I need to have a pretty solid argument behind it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But my point is this: once Multishot becomes part of the Rapid Shot, it ceases to be it's own standard action, and becomes part of the full round action that is Rapid Shot. In the same way that a normal ranged attack is a standard action, but then becomes part of RS, ceasing to be it's own separate standard action.

Manyshot lets you, as a standard action, shoot multiple arrows.

It does not let you shoot multiple arrows in place of any ranged attack.

Rapid Shot grants you an extra ranged attack.

The attack action is a standard action that lets you make a single ranged attack.

That doesn't mean that a/ any attack is a standard action, nor b/ any standard action can be substituted any time you could make an attack.

The Cast a Spell action, for example, might let you make a ranged attack (if you used it to cast, say, Scorching Ray). Does this mean I can use Rapid Shot to cast Scorching Ray as part of my Full Attack action? No... because while the spell incorporates a ranged attack, it requires a standard action to cast.

Manyshot incorporates a ranged attack, but it incorporates that ranged attack as part oif a standard action, and that's the bit you can't shoehorn into a Full Attack action.

Where you're misstepping is "a ranged attack ceases to be a standard action, and becomes..."

An attack is not an action at all; it's something that occurs as part of an action. It might occur once as part of the standard action 'Attack', or more than once as part of the full round action 'Full Attack', or on an AoO (not an action), or as part of the Manyshot standard action.

If you take the ranged attack out of the Manyshot standard action (where it allows multiple arrows), and insert it into the Full Attack action, it no longer benefits from the Manyshot feat.

For what it's worth, the 3.5 Main FAQ has this to say (referring to the ELH version of the feat, but the important points are still relevant to the PHB version):

One of the players in a campaign that I run took the
Manyshot feat from the Epic Level Handbook. His character
gets three attacks if he takes the full attack action, from a
base attack bonus of +6/+1 and the Rapid Shot feat. He
claims that with Manyshot he can fire six arrows as a fullround
action. I say he can’t, since the feat applies only to
standard actions. I think that the feat allows him to fire two
shots during a standard action as opposed to the usual
single shot that is allowed. Does Manyshot apply to full
attack as well as standard actions? I would greatly
appreciate it if you could shed some light on the situation.

You’re right about Manyshot. It allows the character to
shoot two or more arrows as a standard action. It does not allow
the character to fire two or more arrows in place of a single
attack. Standard actions can’t be combined with full attacks,
nor are they part of a full attack.

The example character has a base attack bonus of +6; with
the Rapid Shot and Manyshot feats, the character has the
following options:

• Fire one arrow as a standard action (at +6).
• Fire two arrows as a standard action (at +2—the second
printing of the Epic Level Handbook says the penalty for
Manyshot is –4, not –2 as stated in the first printing).
• Fire two arrows as a full-round action (+6/+1).
• Fire three arrows as a full-round action (+4/+4/–1, with
Rapid Shot)

-Hyp.