Rapid Reload and Guns

[Sejs]

In the game I'm running currently, there are reinesance(sp)-era firearms available, produced by the dwarven nation, and their arcane gnome allies that also live there.

It is normally a standard action to reload a pistol or musket. My questions:


- Would you allow the Rapid Reload feat to be used with firearms if the person in question had EWP(Firearms).

- If so, what action would the more rapid reloading take? The feat itself notes that a Light or Hand crossbow, normally a move-equavelent action becomes a free action, and a Heavy crossbow, normally a full-round action, becomes a move-equavelent action.

Thank you.

 

[Pax]

I would allow it, but it woudl be a "Rapid Reload: Firearm" feat, and wouldn't help you with crossbows (and vice versao).

I'd also make it take one MEA to reload your firearm.

IMC, I've decided that it's an MEA to reload a hand crossbow, Standard action to reload a light crossbow, and Full-Round to reload a Heavy; Rapid Reload drops each of these by one step (Standard for Heavy, MEA for Light, and Free for Hand). Thus, you see my rationale behind the MEA for a firearm.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

What stats do you use for your firearms? Unless you give them a lot better stats than crossbows, I would let rapid reload work as a free action.

For an exotic weapon proficiency and a reloading feat, PCs should get something good--not just a pathetic excuse for a weapon used by people who think they're too cool to use bows.

 

[Sejs]

I just use the rules in the DMG p162-163 for guns. Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms), a pistol is a small size ranged weapon, 1d10, 20/x3, range incr 50ft piercing weapon that costs 250g. A powder horn is 35g and holds 32oz of gunpowder, a powder keg is 250g and holds 240oz of powder. Takes 1 oz of powder per shot. Standard action to reload.

 

[Pax]

A renaissance firearm does the damage of a crossbow three full size categories larger (pistol is about as big as a hand Xbow (tiny), but it does as much damage as a heavy crossbow (large).

An MEA for reloading a black-powder pistol using ... let's call it "Rapid Gunnery" ... seems fair to me, given the damage potential.

Of course, I'd allow the Quick-Loading weapon ability to apply to firearms as well as crossbows (hehehe, belt-fed arquebus, hehe).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

However, you'll have to give firearms something more if you want them to be worth the exotic weapon proficiency it takes to use them.

If you give pistols d10 damage and rifles d12 (or possibly even 2d10) damage and a full round action to load them, PCs are spending a feat to basically use a heavy crossbow in one hand. If any PC were dumb enough to spend another feat on Rapid Reload to get MeA loading, they'd have spent 2 feats for a weapon that is still inferior to a repeating heavy crossbow--or especially a mighty composite longbow (which takes a fighter no feats to use).

So, given the choice between spending two feats to be able to take one shot per round (that you don't move) for 1d10 points of damage or spending no feats to attack at 1d8+[1-4] as many times as allowed by your attack bonus, which would you choose? Now, if you add in the ability to use Rapid Shot and manyshot with the bow, there's really no contest. The only people with the feats to burn on using firearms are the people who would be idiots to do so.

A renaissance firearm does the damage of a crossbow three full size categories larger (pistol is about as big as a hand Xbow (tiny), but it does as much damage as a heavy crossbow (large).

An MEA for reloading a black-powder pistol using ... let's call it "Rapid Gunnery" ... seems fair to me, given the damage potential.

Of course, I'd allow the Quick-Loading weapon ability to apply to firearms as well as crossbows (hehehe, belt-fed arquebus, hehe).

 

[Shirt Guy John]

A while back (a long while back) I posted a "Gunslinger" class (Modified Fighter) with a full list of gunslinging feats. If anyone were to find those, they'd make things a bit more interesting, though balance was never tested, and they were originally set up for use with old-west style guns. Still... I think I'll go look for it...

No wait! Found it! If you can push through the crap, there's some good stuff (well... I used to think so) that could give firearms a bit of a kick for "real fighters" who want to use them.

Old Firearm Stuff

 

[Pax]

However, you'll have to give firearms something more if you want them to be worth the exotic weapon proficiency it takes to use them.

A weapon doesn't have to be Uber, to be good as an exotic weapon. Take the Duom; it's neat, has a nifty ability, but it's basically a Longspear that can attack adjacent targets.

Take the Mercurial Greatsword; better crit multiplier, and that's it.

For firearms ... it's the compact nature of the thing. I might, depending on teh setting, halve the bonus from actual armor and shield (before enhancement bonusses), to represent why firearms were truly the end of the armored warrior: the suckers tended to penetrate armor better than anything else.

But still -- a 1d10 damage ranged weapon that even a GRIG can use? That's plenty special right there!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A weapon doesn't have to be Uber, to be good as an exotic weapon. Take the Duom; it's neat, has a nifty ability, but it's basically a Longspear that can attack adjacent targets.

Take the Mercurial Greatsword; better crit multiplier, and that's it.

Another way of looking at the Duom is to say it's a spiked chain with slightly lower damage, slightly better abilities and a different crit. Similarly, the mercurial greatsword is one step better than the regular greatsword.

The problem with these firearm rules is that they end up being one step better than simple weapons (crossbows) rather than the martial weapons that are the standard for ranged fighters (mighty composite bows).

For firearms ... it's the compact nature of the thing. I might, depending on teh setting, halve the bonus from actual armor and shield (before enhancement bonusses), to represent why firearms were truly the end of the armored warrior: the suckers tended to penetrate armor better than anything else.

That might be a reasonable way to handle them.

But still -- a 1d10 damage ranged weapon that even a GRIG can use? That's plenty special right there!

It sounds special. The problem is that, in play, it's only special in the sense that it rides the short bus. I've played a fair number of Arcanis games (a setting which uses similar rules for firearms--pistols are 1d10 and rifles 1d12 both x3 crit although the weapons are larger and can be used as clubs or greatclubs in melee) and I've seen a number of characters who decided to focus on using flintlocks. Unfortunately, an archer of equal level is twice as effective as any of those gunner characters. They need to take the Altherian Sharpshooter prestige class to even begin to be competitive with core class archers.

 

[Pax]

Part of that is the extremely poor modelling of archery -- and melee for that matter -- with multiple attacks.

I liked the Gurps system: you got one swign per second with a melee weapon. With a bow, it was one second to fetch an arrow, one second to draw and aim, one second to loose -- one shot every three seconds. In that time, the longsword-swinging melee freak could get off three swings ... if he was close enough to be in danger himself.

That's a fair tradeoff.

If you really want to improve guns -- borrow from the old 2E rules (first published in a dragon magazine, IIRC): whenever you roll maximum on the damage die, roll again and add. If you do so, drop all the dice by one or two steps, though.

Thus, with a 1d6 pistol, you could roll 6, roll again and get 6, roll AGAIN and get 6, then roll (say) a 4. Poof, 22 damage; now add for feats, magic, etc.

About as likely as rolling an 18 with 3d6-and-keep, during attribute generation. Unlikely but possible. A prestige class could then give you the ability (at high level) to reroll even when you roll one LESS than maximum; IMO, for a firearm-focussed player, that'd be a sweet bonus, comparable to some of the crit-expanding feats the deepwoood sniper gets.