Ranger|Seeker infinite damage combo (funny)

[jmcminn1076]

I was playing with a Ranger/Seeker build that is designed to create and make as many free/opportunity/immediate action ranged basic attacks as possible, so as to spray grappling spirits doom across the battle map. One of the major triggers for generating these is missing (inevitable shot, rebounding weapons). I then noted that neither of these abilities say that you have to use the same weapon to make the free RBA, and had the brain child that I could do things to miss on purpose to trigger ranged basic attacks -- basically with quick draw (or battle harness armor) you throw a weapon for which you aren't proficient or feat boosted to trigger effects like inevitable shot, making the free ranged basic attacks with your much better superior crossbow (which requires two hands to wield, but only one to hold while you throw shurikens). Then the choice of thrown weapon became a rebounding shuriken +1. It is light weight, so you can carry a lot of them, you aren't proficient in them by default, and at Epic, these are cheap (520gp each), and the item power is an encounter power (not a daily)... you just carry around a large number of them (200 only cost 104000gp, cheap by epic standards), and drop them in a pile as they return to you (free action). Compared to a superior crossbow +6, the shurikens are 3 (proficiency) +3 (expertise) +2 (long range) +5 (difference in enhancement) == -13 to hit. This can be even more, if you add 2 for combat advantage, and 3 for eagle eye goggles (which augments a RBA, but not a twin strike) for a total of -18. With deft aim, my ranged basics can be versus reflex if I choose, which can make the delta bigger still. This sounds useless, but it actually isn't... The original thought was twin-strike shurikens at the party's defender -> miss, miss -> rebounding times two -> crossbow grappling spirits times two. But then I added Martial Archetype, which at level 24 makes all martial encounter powers reliable if they don't have an effect on miss. Triple Shot (ranger attack 17) does 3 attacks, and has no effect on miss, so it is now reliable. The spam now becomes triple shot shuriken -> miss, miss, miss -> rebounding times 3 -> crossbow grappling spirits times 3. Since you missed with triple shot, it is not expended. The thought of rerolling a natural 20 with elven accuracy is funny, but it's something you might do here... or you can just switch to pounding barrage and manticore's volley until you crit and refresh (archetype's edge). But then I was exploring options for Warrior's Ascent, and found Martial Supremacy -- which strangely, applies to Grappling Spirits which is a basic attack with the weapon keyword, even though it is "Primal". (Every Seeker needs to find a way to get Martial Supremacy -- it works with every one of their "counts as RBA" abilities.)

So now I have an encounter power stance that lets me reroll any attack made with Grappling Spirits to either turn a miss into a hit, or strangely, turn an accidental hit into a miss. Neat. Then, after finding the fun of missing on purpose with reliable encounter powers, I discovered inevitable accuracy, which effectively makes inevitable shot "reliable" to go with the obvious inevitable volley feat... so.... attack numbers based on level 30, and not wearing the eagle eyed goggles since missing when you mean to miss is more important than hitting when you mean to hit. This requires three enemies within a blast 5 area to work, since you need to be able to bounce attacks off of them (inevitable shot and rebounding specify "enemy" -- the triple shot trick can be bounced off the party's defender, but this can't) All attacks are made with grappling spirits:

minor: activate martial supremacy
standard: start: grappling spirits with shuriken at secondary (+22 vs AC)

miss activates rebounding:
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grappling spirits with crossbow at primary (+35 vs Reflex)
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miss also activates inevitable shot + inevitable volley (two RBAs):
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shuriken at tetriary, missing, activating rebounding:
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crossbow at primary, hitting (we hope)
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shuriken at primary, missing, activating rebounding:
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goto start, using this RBA to start the standard action over
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Since you missed with both RBAs created by inevitable shot, the power is not expended because you have the inevitable accuracy feat. Since you are in Martial Supremacy stance, you can reroll any hit that was supposed to miss, and any miss that was supposed to hit. +22 vs AC is gonna miss damn near everything at level 30. +35 versus reflex is gonna hit above average, especially since you can reroll. You can repeat until you run out of rebounding shurikens, getting two crossbow attacks for every 3 shuriken misses (using the last miss to restart the cycle), or until you accidently hit when you didn't want to. If you accidently expend inevitable shot, an action point can get you started again. If you do it a second time, a torc of power preservation can help. Hitting on the "start" attack can be remedied with a ring of draconic zeal.

So ok, in a real game the DM would and should stop this cycle at some point, but it is funny... with enough shurikens, and the Tarrasque, Orcus, and Vecna posing for a group photo with two of their lackies, you could concievably kill all three in one turn, and leave the lackies bloodied, slowed, and unable to shift. (and have cover behind the pile of rebounding shurikens at your feet.)

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually, I'd also stop the chain at 'Attacking the party's defender so I can never hit...'

as that's not a meaningful attack. Bag-o-rats, yo.

 

[Mort_Q]

Also... you need to reload the Crossbow at some point, don't you?

 

[DracoSuave]

Also... you need to reload the Crossbow at some point, don't you?

I'd assume he'd have rapid reload.

 

[jmcminn1076]

Yes, Speed Loader was a required feat... Could be done with a bow instead if that were a problem, but it's not. I actually have two ways to free pull shurikens (quick draw feat, and battle harness armor)

As for the bag of rats argument, that's probably the weakest argument against this tactic -- the best one, if you were as the DM going to veto the whole concept, is that RAI is for a rebounding attack to be made with the same weapon that triggered the attack, same with inevitable shot. It's not written that way, so RAW, my sequence above works until the DM stops it... noting that I am not saying that any DM should ever allow it to play out, just that it's a funny hole in RAW.

This is not the same thing as the Pacifist Healer thread -- the character is throwing a shuriken at a valid target, using full attack bonuses provided by the shuriken. Stopping short of the infinite loop cheeze, the character is throwing the shuriken as part of her attack sequence, and I envision the character as somewhat eccentric and she thinks she has some new unique fighting style (the mental image of a character whipping around shurikens and crossbow bolts is amusing to say the least).

Using the defender as a bounce point is somewhat weird, but if you get stuck with a 20, you will do real damage to your own party member... it's also not really the same as squashing a rat to activate a power (the defender is a real target, that can be hit no matter what the math is on a natural 20, and can take real damage).

Personally, if it were me, and this character showed up in a campaign I was DMing, I'd rule inevitable shot can only be used once per standard action or triggered opportunity/immediate action. That would prevent the endless loop, without destroying the entire concept. Silly as it is, in terms of game balance an epic level character built around creating RBAs is on par with most optimized epic builds. Yes, triple Grappling Spirits effectively as an at-will at epic is powerful, but I've seen plenty of builds on par with it. And while it's on the powerful side in terms of at-will, the character spends enough setting that up, that the character can't "nova" (infinite loop aside) like most of the glass cannon builds. If it's not completely broken, and amusing at the table, I'd allow it (noting that the character is NOT resorting to the absurdly cheezy dropping prone, closing her eyes, and such to make it work). That said, I fully expect to see an errata to Rebounding Weapon and Inevitable Shot (requiring the same weapon to be used for the free RBA).

 

[mkill]

Everytime I see "I can just buy piles of item X and drop them on the floor" I know I can stop reading because whatever the player is trying to do will involve sillyness and rules bending.

You know what the good part of being a DM is? You don't have to deal with that kind of crap. You just drop a cow on the character and move on. And if the player doesn't learn the lesson, just kick him out of the group.

 

[jgsugden]

Shorter paragraphs would make that first entry far easier to read. It gave me a headache trying to parse it.

How are you repeating inevitable shot/volley? You get one use of that per encounter (unless you spend an action point, in which case you get a second after an action point has been used after the first usage of the power, meaning that it can't be used twice in the same chain).

As far as I can tell, this gives you no more 'extra' attacks than just the 2 from inevitable volley.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don´t allow things that happen on a miss if you do it on purpose...

This is just silly. It is funny on paper. But if you try doing that on my table I would drop teaforementioned cow on you... not your PC...

 

[keterys]

A great house rule is that you can't use more than one of any item... try to use a daily power from multiple copies of an item? Nope, not allowed. Several encounter powers from the same item type in one encounter? Nope, not allowed.

I still hope that someday they'll issue some sort of errata like that. Instead, they've been taking things like swiftshot and dancing flutes and making them dailies, which I think slightly misses the point.

 

[kerbarian]

Here's a cleaner version that doesn't require a pile of shuriken:

Feats: Inevitable Accuracy, Grazing Shot
Powers: Martial Supremacy, Inevitable Shot
Items: +1 Tratnyr (or Drow Long Knife or Net for shorter range)

For this version, you just keep using ranged basic attacks (with a heavy thrown weapon) and missing. Every time you miss, you deal Dex damage (from Grazing Shot), refresh Inevitable Shot (from Inevitable Accuracy), and use Inevitable Shot again. If you ever hit, you can reroll it with Martial Supremacy.

At level 30, if you started with 8 strength, you'd be at only a +14 to hit vs. AC (1/2 level + 1 enhancement - 2 range), which should miss everything except on a 20, and you can reroll 20's with Martial Supremacy. You can also add in some encounter or daily rerolls (e.g. elven accuracy) in case you get two 20's in a row.

You don't even need to be a seeker or hybrid seeker for this -- you can do it purely through multiclassing. If you never hit, you never expend Inevitable Shot, so having it as a daily is fine. To add this to any class, you'd use:

Bardic Dilettante
Multiclass Mastery (gaining Primal Sharpshooter and Brawling Warrior)
Acolyte Power (swap for Martial Supremacy)
Inevitable Accuracy
Grazing Shot

The only prerequisites are 13 Cha and 13 Wis, plus some Dex so Grazing Shot deals damage.